Crystal Ball Caves/Mines for sale on Ebay.

[joegibbs]

I'm speaking of the 1988 Caving Act:
TITLE 16 - CONSERVATION
CHAPTER 63 - FEDERAL CAVE RESOURCES PROTECTION
Sec. 4308. Miscellaneous provisions
(d) Existing rights
Nothing in this chapter shall be deemed to affect the full
operation of the mining and mineral leasing laws of the United
States, or otherwise affect valid existing rights.

-SOURCE-
(Pub. L. 100-691, Sec. 9, Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4550.)

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/16C63.txt

You can read the entire mining law here:

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/Title_30.txt

[rhartill]

Disclaimer: I am not defending any supposed statement that a mine claimant has a right to loot and plunder cave resources, but I am commenting on how the FCRPA and the mining laws work together--

What this code section that Joe has shared with us means/says, is that the existence of a cave within an otherwise valid mining claim does not somehow cancel out the mining rights. You can't go in, claim that a cave exists in a mine, in order to shut down the mine, without compensating the mine claimant for his/her loss. It may very well be counter-argued that the chicken [mine] or the egg [cave] came first, but the law as written states that they did not want to protect caves at the expense of eliminating mining rights. They co-exist and one does not operate at the expense of the other. The clause cited is an obvious attempt by Congress to protect mining claimants against accusations that the Caving Act prohibits mining wherever a cave exists. It does not. The issue of whether the cave is listed as significant and whether its management is going to interfere with valid mining rights is something I am sure the BLM is working on "behind the scenes.".

[Michael_Leavitt]

Rhartill & Joe Gibbs:

Thanks for that explanation. It makes perfect sense. I just received a phone call and was told that Corey’s mining rights do not include the Crystal Ball Cave in the rights. Is that true? Or is that just more hearsay?

Corey:

Can we see the rights? I’ve never seen or read one before and it would be really interesting to see what one even looks like. If we can’t see the Crystal Ball rights in reference, then does somebody have another one I could read? Maybe I’ll find one through Google.

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

[joegibbs]

That depends on who the call was from. It is was from Corey or the BLM, I would think that the assumption could be correct. Anybody else and I'd guess they were just blowing words you want to hear your way.

[rhartill]

Michael:

On whether an interest in a mining claim covers cave resources, see my discussion here:

http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8793&start=45#p75188

As to "rights," not sure I'm following you....care to rephrase? Cave Resources are protected under a 1988 Caving Act, which carved out an exception that states valid mining rights are not affected by said Act.....mining claims are property interests in locatable minerals and with BLM regulations being followed, can be extracted. In this case, the claims covering the entrance to what is also known as the cave is a right to explore and seek locatable values.

My particular interest is in the better understanding of a set of laws known as mining laws that have served our country well, and places like Tintic are the rich historical areas they are BECAUSE of the mining laws of this country. It is not lost on me that a movement is afoot to radically change these laws. But they haven't yet been changed, and the BLM needs to abide by them until they are changed. "Abide by them" means to respect and not discount a mining claimant, and recognize his/her right to pursue a claim toward economic uses.

This is an explanation of the LAW, and not an attempt to rob cavers of opportunities to visit Crystal Ball or any other cave. I just wish more cavers would understand our love of mines and recognize a similar right to exercise our opportunity to explore and yes, collect chip samples of locatable minerals. I'm not chopping down cave resources, I respect and leave them be, but I DO collect locatable minerals and post photos of same on mindat.org...

http://www.mindat.org/user-11231.html#2

That does not make me a criminal, or an anti-caver, or the boogeyman. Get to know a mine explorationist, and a caver could find a kindred spirit and a fellow soul that longs for a greater public understanding of what an amazing world the underground truly is.

[one_bad_rover]

rights

Mike,
So as to the call you got, I wouldnt give it much creedence, no matter what they say. Even if its the BLM, I doubt they really want to push this because they know it will end up in court and they will lose. The claims, are on the auction and clearly show the land defined on the maps. The lode claim covers any underground minerals or viens, ie, the cave falls right in that category. Even if only the crystals were mined out it would be hugely lucrative, which speaks to the "prudent man" theory.
Im not sure if this is what you are asking for, but all the research leads to this.
I do honestly hope, and not in a mean way, that someone does try to push this, because it is not an isolated case, its going to set a precedent that will be followed for years, and the way the law is spelled out the mining rights are there. If this went to federal court level it would take some major law changes to find in favor of the caves.
Its interesting that people are willing to talk a lot and not back it with facts, ie, some of the posts here and there of "someone is doing something blah, blah, but its a secret". If they had a legal leg to stand on they would make any arguement public.
Im pretty sure the BLM will try to make a validity claim, which wont take much to show value. But the bigger question is why would they make statements that are legally inaccurate, and on TV of all places... not smart.
There is a larger movement that is against the BLM and all things they "steward" over. It would be interesting if this turned out to be a key to dismantling some of their power.

[Michael_Leavitt]

Russ & Corey:

Russ, I followed the links you shared and read the other thread with great interest. I now understand the cold handshake some extended when I joined your Mojave Underground forum. I can also see the bigger motives at play as many of my questions were answered in the other thread.

Corey, this is your landmark case. Your salivating with excitement for the upcoming battle. You want as much continued publicity as possible because you win either way. You are attempting to agitate as many people and groups as possible to keep the focus on the extent of your mining rights. If you win, then fortune is in your future. If you lose, then you are the outlaw martyr for the cause and that bodes well for a wild west tour business like GRE and riches are also in your future. Your stated objectives are to have case law established to set a precedence for your future activities. I was in no way thinking that big. In my own myopic way I was concentrating on what was best for the Crystal Ball Cave. Thanks for expanding my perspective to see your real objectives. Please don’t completely lose your conscience in your quest for infamy and riches while trying to prove how right you are. All I can hope is that the Crystal Ball Cave is not permanently damaged from your wake as you plow forth to battle your mining rights.

As you can tell, I want what is best for the Crystal Ball Cave. I know it sounds myopic, but it was here long before mining laws and it deserves to be here long after our demise.

Thanks again for the dialogue. If you need help in preserving or managing the Crystal Ball Cave, then put my name on the volunteer list.

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

[one_bad_rover]

Mike,
I appreciate the offer and if something falls through or more time is needed I might take you up on it.
I must agree that its my intention to keep the cave in the condition that it is currently in if not better. I think it has been mismanaged but with proper management and control it could be restored to its previous glory. I also think it has good potential to set a precedent for cavers to own a site, and not be beholden to the BLM on what or who can access it and when.
And another idea to ponder is that if patent rights are restored, in any capacity, then whoever holds this claim will be able to own the land, free and clear and manage the cave as they see fit without government interference.

[Michael_Leavitt]

Corey:


Thanks for providing the assurance that while under your watch the Crystal Ball Cave won’t be harmed.

Now my ignorance is showing. I had to do a Google search to find the clear difference between patented and unpatented claims. Here was the description I found. Hopefully it is accurate...

What is the Difference between a patented and an unpatented mining claim?

Patented Mining Claim - is one for which the Federal Government has passed it title to the claimant making it private property. A person may mine and remove minerals without a patent. A mineral patent gives exclusive title to the locatable minerals as well as the land. THIS MEANS YOU OWN THE LAND as well as the minerals.

Unpatented claim - is a particular parcel of Federal land, valuable for minerals and mineral deposits. It is a parcel for what an individual has asserted a right of possession. The right is for the extraction of the mineral deposit. The claimant has a right to only valuable mineral deposits. THIS MEANS YOU DO NOT OWN THE LAND. You only have the right to extract minerals.

How does one go about buying the land? I think I need to do a bit of research. Don’t bother taking the time to fill me in on the details here. I am certain that I can find the information online.

I also have to say that I am more than just a bit excited to see how all of this Crystal Ball Cave turns out. I have no clue what will ultimately transpire, yet I feel like I have front row seats. And regardless of the current fight and hard feelings that many of the participants have expressed, I know that the issue of cave and mine preservation will continue throughout the rest of my years. Hence my desire to stress the common ground between the goals of cavers and mine explorers as we strive to protect the natural resources.

Thanks again,

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

801-636-6816

[Mark1955]

Whoa! The BLM just took control of Crystal Ball Cave away from Corey. They've posted a sign on the door saying that "Public access to the cave is by guided tour only" "call the Fillmore BLM office to arrange the tour". They've also placed their own padlock on his door. He's on my Facebook page and all it says is "Lawsuit Pending".

[caverdaveutah]

Lawsuit pending? That was months ago, and you would think it would have been resolved by now, one way or the other. So how did Corey's lawsuit turn out? Corey was pretty bold, and pretty loud, with all his rants about his mining rights. He was pretty arrogant and vocal about his superior knowledge of mining laws, and how he was right, while all the cavers and BLM were wrong. He said he would fight back, and file lawsuits against the BLM, for preventing him from what he saw as rights under the mining laws.

I'd like to know what lawsuits he actually filed, and how they are progressing. Since he hasn't been back here, to post about his success, and try to prove to everybody that he was right . . . I guess his lawsuits didn't go so well. Perhaps that process isn't complete yet, or of course, he finally discovered how wrong he really was. Anyway, I'm wondering what ever happened with Corey, and with the trouble he started for himself at Crystal Ball Cave.

[TooeleCherokee]

Lawsuit pending? That was months ago, and you would think it would have been resolved by now, one way or the other. So how did Corey's lawsuit turn out? Corey was pretty bold, and pretty loud, with all his rants about his mining rights. He was pretty arrogant and vocal about his superior knowledge of mining laws, and how he was right, while all the cavers and BLM were wrong. He said he would fight back, and file lawsuits against the BLM, for preventing him from what he saw as rights under the mining laws.

I'd like to know what lawsuits he actually filed, and how they are progressing. Since he hasn't been back here, to post about his success, and try to prove to everybody that he was right . . . I guess his lawsuits didn't go so well. Perhaps that process isn't complete yet, or of course, he finally discovered how wrong he really was. Anyway, I'm wondering what ever happened with Corey, and with the trouble he started for himself at Crystal Ball Cave.

a lawsuit with the government done in a few months.. what kind of crack are you on? you might if you are lucky get a court date set by then for a later date but that is about all.

if you want to know what lawsuits were filed so badly why don't you go to the courts and make a request for that information.

sounds to me like you are taking a moment for yourself to be Arrogant and Vocal about your superior lack of knowledge

[Mark1955]

I agree... CaverDave is the one being arrogant... and so is the BLM! Kudos to Corey for standing up to the BLM and giving them an ear full!!! Perhaps CaverDave will some day be smart enough to figure out how to claim hiz own cave/mine... Some how I think not though...

Mark

[RockRacer]

I too am interested to find out the status on this issue.

Remember, we are all friends here.

[caverdaveutah]

>> I agree... CaverDave is the one being arrogant...

You might very well be right... I have certainly been accused of being arrogant before. But that doesn't change the truth of my words, nor does it answer the questions I have posed.

I merely accused Corey of being pretty bold, and pretty loud, in his assertions of things I do not believe to be true. Some of what he said was certainly or probably true, in his discussions on Crystal Ball Cave, but I believe Cory was also quite wrong on several important points. If being arrogant means that I am bold enough to think for myself, and that I will continue to disagree with someone else over a matter of importance, when I feel the evidence is clealy on my side, then I guess I am arrogant.

Cory says and believes certain things, and I say and believe quite different things, and I'm OK with that. Cory is free to believe what his wishes to believe. But after his considerable rant, and after his accusations of ignorance towards anyone and everyone who disagreed with him . . . I am curious to know what has actually happened since then. Did Cory file any lawsuits, and if so, how are those lawsuits progressing. If Cory doesn't say anything at all about this, after his considerable rant, then that's certainly his right. But the complete absence of new information leads me to assume that he was wrong, and doesn't have the guts to admit it. If it turns out that I am wrong, which has happened once or twice before, and there is actual proof I am wrong, then I will certainly admit to it and apologize for any hard feelings I may have caused. Until that time, I will continue to assume that he was wrong, and will wonder how things turned out.


>>Perhaps CaverDave will some day be smart enough to figure out how to claim hiz own cave/mine...
>>Some how I think not though...

You obviously don't know me very well. When I lived in Nevada, I filed between 20 and 25 mining claims, mostly for disseminated gold. Over the years, I've worked as a geologist for 4 large operating mines, and several other mineral exploration or geologic research projects, across 4 different states. As such, I think I have a pretty good idea of how to stake and file mining claims, how to recognize and evaluate economic mineral deposits, and how to tell a natural cave from an abandoned mine.

I don't really care what you think of me or my expertise, since your opinion won''t change the relevant facts. But I am disappointed that you would choose to attack my credibility and intelligence, without knowing much of anything about me, merely because you disagree with my opinions, or are offended by my questions.


caverdaveutah