Crystal Ball Caves/Mines for sale on Ebay.

[Troy]

destroyingangel.....

[one_bad_rover]

and we're back...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190326741294

posted on the gre site as well, with a bit of an explanation. But some people will refuse to listen and just keep it going... Its okay, not the first time Ive been called a ***********************************.

[Derek]

Man what a firestorm on the KSL comments section. I don't understand why people have a hard time understanding what you are doing when you have explained it to them over and over and over again.

[rhartill]

Even more incredible is the collective paranoia that causes some people to think that if more than two people disagree with them, it has to be the work of a single person with multiple aliases

http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8793&start=30#p75164

[btay801]

I just read the full discussion. Whew! Some are acting like a bunch of emotional kids. Seriously posting Corey's cell # over ten times easily and the threats of what can happen when you are "hated in the desert". Pretty bad.

[Jake]

Wow..Corey is getting quit a bashing. Everyone is all upset and bashing each other on the forums. I don't understand why it can be such a big deal to some people. But on the other hand they don't recognize the things that they should get upset about!

[Michael_Leavitt]

Thanks for letting me join the Mohave Underground Forum. I figured that since my posts were being copied and pasted from the caving forums that I should just as well contribute here directly. I always like to get the story and facts from both sides. After evaluating the topic from the caving perspective, here is what I gather happened. Please correct me if you know otherwise. In 2005, the Bates family were told that the cave was deemed significant and that they need not continue to file the mining claim. Being significant, then rights would no longer be offered on the area and this whole situation is an oversight on the part of BLM.

I realize that I have now entered a Forum that is coming from the entirely opposite end of the pendulum swing and I look forward to reading some of your responses. Hopefully good taste will prevail and we can bring facts to light. From your perspective...

• Of what value are the mineral and mining rights when this is a cave?
  
  I read that the seller claims that the Federal protections are not in place for this cave... On what grounds would the Crystal ball cave not be protected?
  
  Should cavers be in fear of the destruction of this cave by the sale of the rights?
  
  Do you feel that the original listing of the cave on EBay was fraudulent and misrepresented the past, current, and future uses of the cave?

So since I am new here to the Mohave Underground, and as Jake alluded earlier in this thread, what are the issues that I should be getting upset about?

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

[Mike]

Hi Michael! Welcome to Mojave Underground (With a J ) Since Mojave Underground Inc. is taking a neutral stance on this topic, I'll not be participating, however, I'm sure the many other users would be happy to comment. Just wanted to give you a welcome.

[Michael_Leavitt]

Thanks for the big welcome Mike. I am wondering why all of the expressed neutral stances in this thread? I guess that I will have to do a little more research and find out what Mojave underground is all about.

If the truth is the truth and the facts are facts, then why can’t we all just be open and discuss what we either know, have experienced, or are learning from our research?

Why don’t you brag a bit about Mojave Underground and share a few links, as needed? I came to you from a Google search on my name and the Crystal Ball Cave. I guess that I need to find the front door and locate the details on Mojave Underground....

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

[Mike]

Mojave Underground Inc is holding a neutral stance because we have very close ties to Corey and Gold Rush Expeditions (who are very important to our mine preservation cause), and very close ties with many in the caving grottos. If we defend or take either side of the argument, somebody is going to feel hurt over it. We pride ourselves in having no enemies (except for the government, or course).

Members of Mojave Underground are welcome to discuss anything they please here, but Stuart and I, the founders of MU, choose not to at this time.

Mojave Underground is a registered non profit organization dedicated to the exploration, documentation, and preservation of mining history across the western United States.

The best place to start is our homepage, http://www.mojaveunderground.com/

The Forum is this location, an open discussion about anything mine related. The Wiki is a location database (including caves, i know, Jon Jasper has already threatened me to remove them), and a Photo Gallery, which contains visual records of all our experiences.

You can view some of our videos on youtube here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/emike09fcmc

http://www.youtube.com/user/stuartx09

A few of my favorite videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/emike09fcmc#play/uploads/6/9sHbsdG97mU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8-od0k-QJo&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/user/emike09fcmc#play/uploads/8/ec6Y5cB2DZQ

http://www.youtube.com/user/emike09fcmc#play/uploads/7/SUp5XGqFSew

http://www.youtube.com/user/emike09fcmc#play/uploads/1/UvHX8yRFPfM

[TooeleCherokee]

Thanks for letting me join the Mohave Underground Forum. I figured that since my posts were being copied and pasted from the caving forums that I should just as well contribute here directly. I always like to get the story and facts from both sides. After evaluating the topic from the caving perspective, here is what I gather happened. Please correct me if you know otherwise. In 2005, the Bates family were told that the cave was deemed significant and that they need not continue to file the mining claim. Being significant, then rights would no longer be offered on the area and this whole situation is an oversight on the part of BLM.

I realize that I have now entered a Forum that is coming from the entirely opposite end of the pendulum swing and I look forward to reading some of your responses. Hopefully good taste will prevail and we can bring facts to light. From your perspective...

• Of what value are the mineral and mining rights when this is a cave?
  
  I read that the seller claims that the Federal protections are not in place for this cave... On what grounds would the Crystal ball cave not be protected?
  
  Should cavers be in fear of the destruction of this cave by the sale of the rights?
  
  Do you feel that the original listing of the cave on EBay was fraudulent and misrepresented the past, current, and future uses of the cave?

So since I am new here to the Mohave Underground, and as Jake alluded earlier in this thread, what are the issues that I should be getting upset about?

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com
www.TheHomeInspector.com

I personally do not know the in's and outs of the Mining laws in question and don't actually care either way as long as the Cave is protected and that it continues to be open for public use and not controlled by the Utah Grottos who do not make places accessible to the public and only the elite few who are part of the clique (I know that nutty putty cave is well controlled and has access for most people thanks Mike but I have found that the majority of Utahs caves are inaccessible and secreted away by said elite requiring memberships, butt kissing and penance to see them though they may be on public lands).

It seems that you are Trolling for the same information that has been posted elsewhere and argued to death I think that if the Grottos or anyone in particular feels that the Claim is invalid, or that fraudulent actions are being taken they should take action and not stir the pot more that it already has been by getting more peoples beliefs on forums but go to the BLM or whoever you need to go to to get things clarified. Heck even politely trying to work "with" GRE is an option.

Please note I am not exempt from stirring the pot at times and like to be a devils advocate.

[joegibbs]

Hi Michael,
Welcome to Mojave Underground There is a ton of speculation as to what is going on. Essentially what happened is Mrs. Bates went it to renew the claim on the mine, took the paperwork home, and simply neglected to finish filling it out and sending it in. The BLM did not force them to not renew the claim, although they were under heavy pressure for insurance and a permit. It was simply just that they forgot. For 4 years.

The mine is in fact a mine, and not a cave. Miners accidentally broke through into the cave. This is why it can have a mining claim on it.

"Of what value are the mineral and mining rights when this is a cave? "
Technically, the value is unchanged. However, Corey can sell the mining rights for more simply due to the fact that he's getting incredible publicity out of this, and people are willing to spend more in order to get it for whatever reason. Hopefully to personally preserve the cave and mine.

"I read that the seller claims that the Federal protections are not in place for this cave... On what grounds would the Crystal ball cave not be protected? "

Mining law supersedes caving laws, which means a cave has no legal precedence when located within a valid mining claim. Think of all the caves Kennecot blasts through... There is a section in the caving act that even specifies this.

"Should cavers be in fear of the destruction of this cave by the sale of the rights? "

I don't think so. The value of the specimens within the cave are not enough to justify the expense for what Corey is selling the mine for. Almost hit $20k before ebay pulled the listing for legal rewording.

"Do you feel that the original listing of the cave on EBay was fraudulent and misrepresented the past, current, and future uses of the cave?"

It was not fraudulent. Corey was and is 100% within his rights to sell the claim as he pleases. It was pulled, however, for not being legally worded correctly. The new listing is more accurate.

What Corey is doing is completely legal, and 100% within his rights as the rightful claim holder. The BLM absolutely cannot remove Coreys claim, even though Glenn Carpenter said they wouldn't let Corey touch anything in the cave for mining. It was a downright blatant lie. He's just telling the media and the public what they want to hear. They issue the claim, and if Corey can prove there are minerals in the mine, which he has already done, they cannot remove the claim.

I just hope the person who buys the mine wants to preserve everything in it.

[Michael_Leavitt]

Joe:

Thanks for the great response. I don’t represent the grottos, but I am writing as both the Nutty Putty Cave Access manager and as a caver. After reading Tooele Cherokee’s response it strikes me that we are all wasting a lot of energy against each other, when we should really be finding out about each others interests and work together in a common cause. Mine explorers obviously want the mine rights and accesses protected. Cavers are all for that as well, as long as the caves are not destroyed in the process. What I do not feel very much so far is the mutual respect for the efforts of the grottos. Tooele Cherokee completely wiped out the credibility of the efforts of the grottos in one broad stroke. Does that offend me?... Yes, but I’ll get over it. I endorse the proven caver’s paranoaia that it only takes the efforts of a few irresponsible individuals to completely destroy cave features that took millions of years for nature to create. If mine explorers will accept our paranoia and help us in our efforts, then I am certain that we can help in your efforts with the mine access/closure issue.

I wonder how far apart we really are?

GRE has every right to official minimg claims, but for those who did not read the exaggeration of rights and privileges being sold with the claim, I have the original EBay listing. The Grottos went into action because of the exaggerations and misrepresentations shared by GRE in an attempt to make their auction more attractive to prospective buyers. It should be really easy for mine explorers to understand that cavers want caves protected, especially the caves with features like Crystal Ball Cave. This is where lines must be drawn in the sand. The Crystal Ball Cave has been a guided tour cave for decades.

I think there needs to be a mutual respect between us, for if there is, then our combined efforts against mine/cave closures will be that much more effective.

CAVE LOCATIONS - Mike, we need to discuss this further because it is a slap in the face to cavers to give everybody specific directions to delicate and/or hazardous caves. Destructions, injuries, and fatalities bring with it closures. If cavers listed directions to every open mine and the result was an injury or death that caused closures and headaches for those wanting to explore mines, then you would probably be pretty upset with cavers. That is why we don’t list directions to mines. From what I can tell, you don’t want cavers threatening mines, and we don’t want mine explorations to threaten caves.

So how far apart or we?

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

[Mike]

Sorry Michael, but we have very different views of how things should be. Unfortunately, they are not going to change. Countless members of the timp grottos have contacted us, even threatened us, but things are the way there are. They are public locations, not owned by any grotto, and as specified in the caving act, in essence, cannot be hidden by any organization. We feel that public locations should be shared, and not hidden behind elite minded organizations that require membership, knowing the right people, and filling out piles of documents just to even start to have a clue where these locations are. It reminds me of a little child who found something and hides it away, never showing it to anybody but those they are closest with out of fear of having it removed by their parents. The cavers view is to hide it away and not show it. Mine explorers view is instead show it to the world so they can see it, and know that it is there, and collectively fight those who try to remove it. And so far, we've been successful. I'm personally a very strong supporter of Darwin's theory for natural selection. Those who are careless will learn lessons.

We have similar interests when it comes to intentions, but Mine Explorers and Cave Explorers go about things in a very different way. We are willing to help cavers in their efforts at any time. Just let us know when you need assistance and we'll drop what were doing and help out.

I apologize if I or any of us have come across as aggressive, especially to a new user. Just want to make sure our views are known and understood.

[TooeleCherokee]

Tooele Cherokee completely wiped out the credibility of the efforts of the grottos in one broad stroke. Does that offend me?... Yes, but I’ll get over it

I am not sure how I wiped out the credibility of anyone.. I stated my experience and what I would like to see and some of my reasoning. If this wipes out the grottos credibility then I fear that the shell of credibility is very very thin

you asked a question.. and you were trolling for the same answers you have gotten elsewhere...

Here is the Line between the groups "Open access to everyone" Mojave does at times restrict who can go on a outing based on experience but if you can give some examples of your experience you are welcome to come along no matter who you are and you don't have to be buddy buddy with anyone or have the same political views etc it is about the Mine or Cave. The Local grottos (again in my experience) do not have this mentality.