Crystal Ball Caves/Mines for sale on Ebay.

[one_bad_rover]

Once in a lifetime opportunity to own an amazing site. Ebay link is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200368309750

[TooeleCherokee]

Looks like the Local Grottos don't like this idea


Crystal Ball Cave - 25 days and counting... Sold!!!
Posted by: "Michael Leavitt" Peaceofmind@TheHomeInspector.com inspectormiky
Mon Aug 3, 2009 4:07 am (PDT)


Fellow Cavers:

I woke up early this morning to celebrate my birthday and I found the following in my Inbox. From the looks of it we have 25 days and counting to do something about this Crystal Ball cave issue. Would somebody like Dale Green that knows the history share what steps we need to take to stop this process. Gold Rush Expeditions is prostituting this precious resource to the highest bidder.

From: NSS Caver
Date: Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 8:50 PM
Subject: Crystal Ball

Has anyone heard about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=200368309750

How can we best draw together as one cohesive group to stop this from happening? How can they claim this is a mine instead of a cave? I thought there was protection due to the fact that it is a cave and not a mine. Looking at the 101 photos they share online, they are touting all of the cave formations as part of the treasure to plunder. There must be something that the 3 Grottos can do to immediately and collectively act and put a stop to the sale? From what angle do we fight this? Who do we submit our complaints? And to whom do we follow as our leader into this battle? It is obviously time to get off our collective behinds and wield our swords. I´m wielding mine right now, but I look like a crazed mad man standing out in the dark swinging at the unknown like a blindfolded kid swinging at a dangling piñata at a birthday party. Let me know what direction to swing and I am ready to knock somebody´s block off.

Michael Leavitt

Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager

Orem, Utah

Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

801-636-6816

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2a.
Re: Crystal Ball Cave - 25 days and counting... Sold!!!
Posted by: "Michael Leavitt" Peaceofmind@TheHomeInspector.com inspectormiky
Mon Aug 3, 2009 6:58 am (PDT)


Ralph:

Thanks for your continued interest in Utah caving. In this case, Crystal
Ball Cave is located in Spring Mountain, Utah and not in Nevada. The land is
not what is being sold. Instead, it is the mining and mineral rights.
Investigating the links shows that there was a lapse on the part of the
State Legislature following through with their plan to withdraw the mineral
claims in the area around the cave.

At the risk of being redundant, I am resharing a portion of the info that
Gretchen baker shared with us last week. When she shared the information we
knew nothing about the EBay listing…

I talked to Jerry Mansfield, geologist, at the Fillmore BLM yesterday, and
he said 2005 was the last year that the Bates' filed proof of labor. The BLM
thought the area was withdrawn from mineral claims, as it had been part of a
plan to do so, but the action had never occurred. A little investigation
showed that the 1987 House Range Resource Management Plan did indeed state
that the area of Gandy Mountain Caves was to be withdrawn from mineral
claims.

Although that part of the plan was not put into place, Crystal Ball Cave and
the surrounding mountain was designated as the Gandy Mountain Area of
Critical Environmental Concern (ACEC), 1120 acres recognized for its
geologic features. The area has also been recognized as a special recreation
management area.

The Fillmore BLM said that they are working on an agreement with the Bates
for them to manage the cave, and are trying to figure out how to deal with
Goldrush Expeditions.
There is certainly concern about Goldrush Expeditions trying to do some
actual mining. Any features in the cave should be protected by the Federal
Cave Resources Protection Act of 1988, but even surface alterations could
have impacts on the cave if drainage patterns or vegetation cover are
changed.

I asked what we can do, and Jerry Mansfield said it would be helpful to send
letters to Patricia M. Bailey, Acting Field Manager, in support of the Bates
managing the cave and in support of no mining of the cave or cave area.

The address:
Patricia M Bailey, Acting Field Manager
Fillmore Field Office
35 East 500 North
Fillmore, UT 84631
435-743-3100
patricia_bailey@blm.gov

Have all of you taken the time to write to Patricia Bailey yet? If not,
please do so today! 25 days and counting…

Michael Leavitt

Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager

Orem, Utah

Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

801-636-6816

From: Ralph Powers [mailto:deafnss@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 7:03 AM
To: Michael Leavitt
Subject: Re: [TIMPANOGOSgrotto] Crystal Ball Cave - 25 days and counting...
Sold!!!

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 7:06 AM, Michael Leavitt
wrote: Fellow Cavers:

I woke up early this morning to celebrate my birthday and I found the
following in my Inbox. From the looks of it we have 25 days and counting to
do something about this Crystal Ball cave issue. Would somebody like Dale
Green that knows the history share what steps we need to take to stop this
process. Gold Rush Expeditions is prostituting this precious resource to the
highest bidder.
How can we best draw together as one cohesive group to stop this from
happening? How can they claim this is a mine instead of a cave? I thought
there was protection due to the fact that it is a cave and not a mine.
Looking at the 101 photos they share online, they are touting all of the
cave formations as part of the treasure to plunder. There must be something
that the 3 Grottos can do to immediately and collectively act and put a stop
to the sale? From what angle do we fight this? Who do we submit our
complaints? And to whom do we follow as our leader into this battle? It is
obviously time to get off our collective behinds and wield our swords. I’m
wielding mine right now, but I look like a crazed mad man standing out in
the dark swinging at the unknown like a blindfolded kid swinging at a
dangling piñata at a birthday party. Let me know what direction to swing and
I am ready to knock somebody’s block off.

Mike, as a collective group the Grottos have a strong voice and likewise
they can draw upon the NSS for assistance...
Here in TAG there is an organization dedicated to saving and preserving
caves in danger of being plundered, closed or destroyed for whatever reason.
Granted 70% of land around here is privately owned but when cave-rich
property does come up for sale SCCI
http://www.scci.org/ gets up and works to purchase it or at least come to
terms with it. Over the years they've now accumulated over a million dollars
worth of property that have caves or karst resources.

If Crystal Ball and Gandy Mountain are in Nevada then you're going to have
to contact Nevadan land authorities or whomever.
The caves would be a worthwhile investment for an entire group of people to
own/manage and protect. The group of course would be the Utah Grottos. An
investment that will last beyond a lifetime if the grottos pull together and
work together to help preserve these two beautiful caves.
Far as I know Gandy Mountain hasn't had proper attention from photographers
and just from my two trips there (long long time ago) it still in my memory
as one of the beautiful desert caves in the area.

You're not alone Mike in swinging your sword around but like you asked...
who is going to lead? How about the one who speaks loudest?

Examine what was said not him who speaks. ~Arab Proverb

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2b.
Re: [TIMPANOGOSgrotto] RE: Crystal Ball Cave - 25 days and counting.
Posted by: "Heaton, Timothy H. (USD)" Timothy.Heaton@usd.edu ischyromys
Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:06 am (PDT)


Thanks Ralph and Mike for the heads up on this threat to Crystal Ball
Cave. I'm glad I monitor this list!

I just sent the following letter to the BLM. I hope others will write
also.

-Tim

From: Heaton, Timothy H. (USD)
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:00 AM
To: 'patricia_bailey@blm.gov'
Subject: Protection of Crystal Ball Cave

August 3, 2009

Patricia M Bailey, Acting Field Manager

Fillmore Field Office, Bureau of Land Management

35 East 500 North

Fillmore, UT 84631

Dear Ms. Bailey,

It has come to my attention that there is a dispute over control of
Crystal Ball Cave near the town of Gandy, Utah. I am Professor and Chair
of Earth Sciences at the University of South Dakota. As a graduate
student at Brigham Young University I wrote my Masters Thesis on the Ice
Age vertebrate fossils of Crystal Ball Cave. As part of this project I
conducted extensive collecting in the cave, following up on previous
excavation work by Professor Wade E. Miller of Brigham Young University.
The cave still contains a very significant bone deposit that needs
protection. I worked extensively with the Gerald Bates family during my
research. I also visited the cave years earlier when Gerald's father
Cecil was giving tours of the cave.

The Bates family has done an excellent job of preserving and protecting
Crystal Ball Cave for generations of scientists and visitors to benefit
from. They have been careful to work within the established system in
order to maintain control of the cave, but government agencies have
often given them faulty information to work with. The new competing
outfit, called Goldrush Expeditions, clearly has no interest in
preserving or managing the cave, but is trying to use a legal ploy to
make a quick buck. Any "mining" they might do at or near the cave could
cause irreparable damage.

I urge you, in the strongest possible terms, to do everything in your
power to prevent Goldrush Expeditions from gaining any control or profit
from Crystal Ball Cave. The cave is a national treasure and deserves
serious government protection because of its unique cave formations and
fossil deposits. Until such protections can be put in place, Gerald
Bates and his family should maintain control of the site because of
their location and demonstrated dedication to monitoring and preserving
the site.

Let me know if I can be of any help in having Crystal Ball Cave
withdrawn from mineral claims. Here are the references to my primary
scientific publications on the cave. I will gladly provide you with
copies on request.

Heaton, Timothy H. 1985. Quaternary paleontology and paleoecology of
Crystal Ball Cave, Millard County, Utah: with emphasis on mammals and
description of a new species of fossil skunk. Great Basin Naturalist,
vol. 45, no. 3, pp. 337-390.

Emslie, Steven D., and Heaton, Timothy H. 1987. The Late Pleistocene
avifauna of Crystal Ball Cave, Utah. Journal of the Arizona Nevada
Academy of Science, vol. 21, no. 2, pp. 53-60.

Tim

Timothy H. Heaton, Chair and Professor

Department of Earth Sciences and Physics

The University of South Dakota

Vermillion, SD 57069

605-677-6122

Timothy.Heaton@usd.edu

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3a.
Crystal Ball Cave mess
Posted by: "Dale Green" pakrat7j@burgoyne.com caverdale
Mon Aug 3, 2009 9:59 am (PDT)


To all:

Just so you know, this has the attention of Jim Goodbar, the BLM cave lead for the U.S. He is doing everything he can to stop this. In the meantime, we should all go to eBay and protest the sale of speleothems from a cave that is designated as Significant under the terms of the Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988.

Dale

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3b.
Re: Crystal Ball Cave mess
Posted by: "Jim Olsen" lists@tomichicreek.com clifwlkr
Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:03 am (PDT)


Do you have an auction number for this?

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: utcavers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:utcavers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dale Green
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:59 AM
To: utcavers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [utcavers] Crystal Ball Cave mess

To all:

Just so you know, this has the attention of Jim Goodbar, the BLM cave lead
for the U.S. He is doing everything he can to stop this. In the meantime, we
should all go to eBay and protest the sale of speleothems from a cave that
is designated as Significant under the terms of the Federal Cave Resource
Protection Act of 1988.

Dale

[Mike]

Mojave Underground and myself are keeping our hands out of this one. At least publicly.

[Skylinerider]

Blah blah blah. GRE got the claim and can do as they wish. If the Bates cared about it they had plenty of time to renew their claim, but they let it lapse. The grotto's would have done the same if they would have known the claim was available, they just want to control access to more caves on public land.

[CaverStretch]

As I'm friends with the Bates, I think I'll also keep my hands out of the cookie jar. At least puplicly. Isn't it ironic that these are the excact caves and mines that I was going to lead a MU trip too this fall? Pretty awesome area for mines and caves.

[Stuart]

I have also decided that Mojave Undergound and myself will stay neutral in this matter as many of us have ties to all parties involved. If anyone would like to discuss my personal feelings on the matter feel free to send me an email or private message.

[ExpUt]

I was under the impression that the Bates intentionally let the claim lapse as they were pressure from the BLM to either get liability insurance for what was being called a commercial venue (tours) or quit giving tours. They were possibly given a similar "liability" discussion as mine owners that end up turning their claims over to reclamation. Basically if anyone gets hurt... you get sued type of deal. I figured the Bates were going to let the claim lapse, assumed nobody would touch it and it would remove them from liability yet allow them to continue giving tours as they always have?? I could be way off, I've honestly spent little time actually researching the situation.

If there is one thing I hold higher than most rights, its the right to own property and mineral claims and this is situation right up there. I'm not going to agree with a new owner wanting to completely destroy the cave's natural structure in search of minerals... but then again don't you think Bingham Mountain looked pretty damn cool before Kennecot turned it into a hole? And isn't that hole actually pretty damn cool and better than a reclaimed 'slope' that the DOGM would want it to be after closing? And isn't a 100 year old mine building on Park City's Ski Resort or downtown PC cooler than a condo for that matter too? What about natural cave features inside of mines that are physically shut ordestroyed through reclamation. Not even in the name of private interest or private property, rather the public protecting the public from them public? All bigger tragedies in my mind. I've heard mine (and general public land access persons in general) tout that mining, farming, logging and their related impacts to the earth should actually be studied as history, history of development, history of access, history of economy and the contributions it made to state and local governments. Its my opinion that the caving grotto's and BLM should have been more on the ball if this was such a huge asset, not to sound harsh but the Bates have known this claim lapsed for 4 years... did they offer it up to any of the local grottos? Likewise the BLM and resource groups have known about this issue for quite some time, they seemed to make little effort to reverse the situation even to this day?

Its obviously not a win-win situation for anyone at this point, but who knows, it could be. Maybe the cave grotto's can get a fund together to buy it from GRE. But what Corey did was completely legal and as one that is working on mine claims myself, I would hate to have those reversed just because someone else 'forgot' to re-up their older claim. I don't get much leeway if I forget to make my mortgage payment... but Obama is 'changing' that lol. Heck, plots and plots of area are being lost to public land access through SITLA auctions, federal land swaps and resource closures. While it doesn't ever seem fair, its often by the book and completely legally done. Honestly I challenge any of you to find a parcel of land to claim under a legal mine claim... that WON'T be protested by some shape or form, ie SUWA, Save Our Canyons, Broads for Wilderness, Sierra, etc. While I'm by no means lumping every group that opposes a mine claim together with some of the more radical ones, my point is that if each site had the notoriety that this one did, even if it didn't have a natural cave on it... there would be some group fundamentally against the action if nothing more than to prevent more instances of mining, a part of our nations 'checkered past' according to some. There are places I would adamantly oppose a new mining claim.. doesn't mean I have any legal standing to do so. If the law is broken or needs revision or the BLM dropped the ball, they should take their angst there imo.

[one_bad_rover]

theres no such thing as bad publicity...

So I knew this would be a $hitstorm right off the bat. Thats part of the reason we have been pushing it out, I figured at some point the cavers would get involved.
To their credit, they have generated a healthy bit of buzz. Most of it has seemed good. we have gained another 277 members in the past few days, thats after weeding out some bad eggs.
Additionally we have pulled in another $391.00 in donations via Paypal. there is no such thing as bad publicity.
It is funny that the first thing that the cavers jump on is that this is going to be destroyed.. the Bates held mining claims for years and no one complained.
No one complained.. its change.. people dont like it, dont research it, and freak out when it happens.
I heard a saying once that said: "The true mark of intelligence is ones ability to adapt to change." If thats true there are a lot of dumb people out there.
In all actuality, the cave will probably exist as it does now. Someone will watch over it and make sure that no one is destroying the place like has been recently done (check the facebook pics)

Also, its got its own little spot on the evening news.
Channel 5 tonite(08/04/09), 10pm. I'll dvr it and post it. Im sure I'll get crucified as well, but hey, everyone likes a train wreck!!

So hows the adopt a mine hits.. Ive been showing a bit of traffic coming from search engines to AOM to GRE... more good publicity!!

[Crystal]

The article version is up, interesting dispute.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=7412960

[rhartill]

Discussion is ongoing here too:

http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&p=75078

[ExpUt]

Go Corey!

Don't think for a second this won't happen on a similar claim, especially if actions are taken to prevent GRE from pursuing the legal sale of a legal claim. Its funny they have an issue now with the fact there is a mine claim, but its been OK for the Bates to have a mine claim there and CHARGE for tours the last 40-50 years? The double standard is appalling. I'm honestly surprised that more within the mine exploration groups are not rallying behind the GRE's right to persue mineral claims. If his case is defeated at the whims of special interest groups, don't think other claims will hold up any differently.

[Kiel]

Up to 17,895 already

[Troy]

Wow. Just checked and the listing was removed from E-Bay. Such a shame...

I'm sure nobody would have actually hurt the cave. Buying the right to "mine" the cave is another form of preservation?

Oh well, they may have removed the sale from E-bay, but the rights can still be sold. Interesting debate.

[Stuart]

There is a firestorm debate going on the ksl thread for their story. Apparently there are many misinformed people out there..

[Jeff]

As is always the case it seems.