Crystal Ball Caves/Mines for sale on Ebay.

[rhartill]

Welcome Michael, from thelivingwest, aka Russell Hartill. I am a mine historian, mine explorationist, and local attorney with a background in historic preservation and mining law. [I know, quite a diverse spread of interest.] I would be happy to answer general or specific questions on mining law as it relates to caves and vice versa either here or on cavechat.org, or via pm....

I agree with you in that mutual respect between us will help combine efforts against mine/cave closures. Many of the MU members will appreciate your website and in particular this webpage that supports keeping mines open:

http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/NSealUp82006.html

I recommend to any MU member to please read this article before assuming Mike Leavitt is the enemy. We all have common enemies and it is not each other.

I have recently crossed over and introduced myself on cavechat.org, and after an initial bashing, have found some cavers that feel the way I do about mine exploration. And I find on the caver.org site a spirited discussion of whether or not to publically advertise cave locations. We MU types have had a similar discussion amongst ourselves about whether or not to give out lat and long on mine features.

So, in answer to the question, how far apart are we? The answer is not easy to pinpoint but my sense is that we are NOT that far apart, and in the joint interest of our love and passion for the underground, we are better served coordinating and engaging in dialogue with one another to preserve and guarantee access to the underground values we cherish.

Some of us might actually be a little jealous of your ability to obtain BLM and or SITLA agreements and management of underground values may require such agreements to satisfy government concerns over liability, insurance, and federal regs. Some of us may have a knee jerk reaction against most forms of governmental regulation and destruction of mining history, esp. the destructive backfilling of mine openings without ever having surveyed the underground of many of Utah's most famous mines and mining districts. That knee jerk reaction may extend to unfairly judging those who have made a tentative peace with these agencies for the control and access of underground resources they love.

In the end, I would welcome a discussion and sharing of ideas on how to incorporate our interests and getting more involved in the early planning process with those agencies most directly responsible for mine closures. For example and specifically:

Dale Green recently mentioned that he and others were involved with DOGM in giving advice to them on Nutty Putty and mines in the area in relation to the North Tintic EAST project, scheduled to go to bid next year. Dale said the DOGM has already promised money and help in preserving Nutty Putty's access, and yet we have not been given access to nor have we been invited to advise ANYONE on our concerns for the mines we appreciate in the North Tintic East area. ANY advice, strategy, names, etc you could share with us to begin a dialogue with would be welcomed...

An example: The Selma mine, has been recommended by at least one caver, for CLOSURE, after he and others surveyed it to their satisfaction. We would like the chance to survey it ourselves, before the BLM seals it shut. We politely disagree with this caver in his recommendation to close the Selma Mine, which has a rich history.... Your thoughts on how to bridge this gap between those who enter mines, and find no cave values so recommend their closure, and us, who may race past cave features in a effort to find mine values... would be appreciated...

Again, Welcome...

[Stuart]

Michael,

Welcome to Mojave Underground! I'm am pleased that you have joined our forum and I hope that we can continue to discuss this matter in a civilized manner. I also believe strongly that we should work together on issues involving closure and access. As nutty putty manager we can learn much from your experiences.

[Mike]

Not enemies at all! In fact, Michael, if you wish we are heading into the hidden treasure mine tomorrow morning, if you wish to join us. We'd be happy to have you with us. We'll be rock hounding and seeing a pretty neat dome shaped cave full of flowstone. Or if you are more into verticle, we have a group doing some exploring, including a unique cave. only a handful of people have ever seen these caves. Visit our meetup link above for more info! Were actually a really nice crowd, I'm just tired of the caving rights discussion and everyone else is tired of the Corey discussion.

[one_bad_rover]

Mike (the caving one)...
So as to the CBC, if you take a look at the pics I just posted(www.goldrushexpeditions.com), you can see how trashed the site was when we came upon it. We figured it for an old mine site until we started the research and found out it was infact the CBC. At that point we saw that the claims had been abandoned in 2005. Take into account the state of the site and we assumed it must be abandoned.
Im just a little tired of being villanized. The Bates were not the saviors of the cave, they were the slow death of it and hopefully someone will come in and bring it back to its proper glory.

[Joanne]

I have to say how impressed I am with the civil discussion going on here in light of the very controversial nature of the topic. Great job to all parties involved.

Joanne

[Michael_Leavitt]

Corey:

I do not want to be accused of villainizing your character. But I do need to be direct and honest in my perspective.

I am having a hard time harmonizing you actions with your statements regarding Crystal Ball. I am not passing judgment, because we have never met, yet you seem to present two very different motives online. The first expressed motive is the desire to make a large amount of money, as evidenced by your first listing description of the Crystal Ball Mine/Cave on EBay. It was all about capitalizing off your wonderful newly acquired rights for sale to the highest bidder. You exaggerated the description in an attempt to create a bidding frenzy to make more money. Then you present the altruistic side in other posts that you are just trying to get people on the mines to prevent them from being identified as abandoned and closed. From my perspective, with Crystal Ball Cave you cannot have it both ways. You cannot be out to make a huge profit while trying to save the mine and decorative cave. That is serving two masters and the greed will tend to win out the majority of the time. This means the prospect of damage to the cave that can never be repaired.

So far I cannot get you and/or the rest of the Mojave Underground members to give me any reassurance that the Crystal Ball Cave will be preserved and undamaged. How does your current plan accomplish anything other than you making money and the next owner will be burdened with trying to do what is right with the cave?

Instead of calming assurance of preservation, I have been assured that mining law will supersede any cave preservation laws and that the Crystal Ball Cave is still up for sale on EBay. Now that you know it is a decorative cave worth preserving, then let’s consider taking the auction off EBay, figure out what you have invested and get you recompensed, and then let’s set up a management plan with the BLM to preserve the cave on a volunteer basis.

Can you clear up another point in this series of events that is bugging me? Did the Bates family follow the BLM advice to not continue with the claims? Or did Mrs. Bates forgetfully get the forms and just never submitted them after 2005? Or did something else happen? The answer is very important and key to the direction that should be taken from here. The mine explorers are sharing one story and the cavers another. They can’t both be accurate.

P.S. You do realize that you are never going to live down image 41 that shows an AK-47 type assault rifle inside the Crystal Ball Cave. That does not breed confidence or win a lot of credence from the preservation community.

Thanks again for dialoging.

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

[Mike]

I'd like to again reassure that Mojave Underground is keeping its hand out of this one. Its not our fight. We are neither for or against any side. As quoted: "the rest of the Mojave Underground members to give me any reassurance that the Crystal Ball Cave will be preserved." Mojave Underground and its members have no legal association with the cave, mine, its sale, its rights, or its governing laws, and as such, cannot provide any form or reassurance that the cave will be protected. Please respect our organizations views of neutrality, and take any member's views of as their own personal speculations not associated with Mojave Underground. Mojave Underground Inc.'s official purposes as an npo are to protect mining heritage and history, not caves; although caves are important to many of us on personal levels, many of us, myself included, have worked with the grottos on cave preservation in the past when reclamation threatened cave access.

[joegibbs]

Instead of calming assurance of preservation, I have been assured that mining law will supersede any cave preservation laws and that the Crystal Ball Cave is still up for sale on EBay. Now that you know it is a decorative cave worth preserving, then let’s consider taking the auction off EBay, figure out what you have invested and get you recompensed, and then let’s set up a management plan with the BLM to preserve the cave on a volunteer basis.

.......


P.S. You do realize that you are never going to live down image 41 that shows an AK-47 type assault rifle inside the Crystal Ball Cave. That does not breed confidence or win a lot of credence from the preservation community.

I know a quick and easy way to make that happen, Michael. Doesn't the NSS have a save a cave fund or something of the sort? All that needs to happen is for somebody in the NSS to front up the cash, and its done and taken care of. I believe that is technically the only way to prevent destruction of the cave (although in all honest reality, nobody is going to go in there and mine the cave out or go ape crazy on formations). And as you suggested, this in turn would compensate Corey for his time, efforts, and attempted humiliation and libeling of his organization. Then you can get a management plan with the omnipotent and omnipresent God of Public Lands, the BLM. I'm all for the a responsible party purchasing the claims.

Whats wrong with taking an AK47 into a mine? Doesn't the DOGM claim in all their stay out, stay alive videos and pamphlets that mines are full of scorpions, serpents, cougars, bears, demons, and dragons? What better reason to carry in a mine than that? :P I'm huge into preservation. Have been my whole life. Doesn't seem to affect my view of things at all. But I grew up with guns of all sorts, so its something I'm used to and appreciate.

[Crystal]

This is turning into quite the dispute and for all the talk going on there doesn't seem to be much progress. I do have some questions for the cave people however. . .

The CBC claim was open in 2005 and sat for four YEARS, where were all the cavers when this was open??? Someone else could have gone in, claimed the mine and did as they pleased with the minerals . . .

So why is it that when Corey claims it puts it up on Ebay he suddenly becomes a ***********************************?? ANYONE can file a mine claim and ANYONE can buy an action item. . .so what's the difference????

What are people going to do about it now? Personally I think that whoever is interested in protecting this cave they should pool their money together and buy the claim. Maybe if you're super nice to Corey he'll make you a deal (unlikely but you could try). Then when you have the claim you can give it to the NSS or whomever and you can kept it forever and ever.

This should be a lesson for all of us, if there is something that is dear to you and you don't want anyone else to have it then make sure you buy it or claim it before someone else does and puts it up on Ebay!

[ExpUt]

I don't claim to know all the details...

However a close freind of the Bates reported that during the time the claim came up for renewal in 2005 there was a sick family member and they just let it slip. It seemed that at the same time the BLM had really been pushing the insurance issue so they might have just decided to let the claim expire and push their luck running the tour side of things?

Now I'm not going to speak for Corey nor GRE and their intentions with this claim or the monetary side of things. However knowing Corey's past endeavors I'm fairly confident that any and all money collected in the sale of this claim would be used for GRE's continued efforts towards protecting and preserving historical spots here in Utah. $10k+ doesn't go very far to pay for the fuel, lodging, food, etc that GRE incurs on their countless trips to document sites, work with land managers, host events, etc. If/when Corey or any other does take a personal payment for his time attributed to running GRE, good on them for being able to! Non-profits of all sorts pay administrators and contractors, after all you can only go so far on a 100% volunteer group... I'd like to see the day when MU has the funds to pay a staff, all the more time they can spend in the efforts of preservation!

[Jake]

It looks like this big fight scared the #%^* out of anyone who considered buying the minerals claim. So this dispute will all be for nothing.

[one_bad_rover]

Yeah, I guess end of auction will see. There have been a few parties that have contacted us in regards to purchasing but will have to wait until auction end to see what happens. It looks pretty solid that it will get sold. And if not, well, then the opponents should consider if they really want GRE holding the claims and access. Cause I am not going to be letting any caving groups onto the property and Id love a chance to enforce that.

[Michael_Leavitt]

Corey:

Did you really mean to state that?

What provision of the laws allows you to restrict cave access to the public when you hold the mineral rights? Here I thought we were working on an agreement, yet you seem to be drawing firm lines in the sand. This must run deeper than what I see on the surface.

When you get a chance can you take a moment to answer some of my questions earlier in this thread?

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com

[one_bad_rover]

reply to Mike

Mike,
So I should jump in and say, do I expect to make a decent chunk off of this site, yes. If you look at the other mining claims we have sold, they have gone from $1500.00 to $16000.00. The people that buy these, especially at the larger cost, have a distinct view of holding onto history and what is left.
The fact that we raise funds from this isnt even a question, its a fact, thats how we operate. We burned over 80k last year in expenses, thats no one getting paid, but hopefully everyone getting reimbursed for costs. The eBay auctions are only one of a few ways that we try to raise the revenue to keep things going. and just as a side note, well over half of the expenses last year were paid personally by me, not GRE, but out of my checking account.
So yes, I will go on the record to say that I intend to make $$ off the claims. This doesnt make me evil, it makes me pragmatic and realistic. Or maybe I should wait for Obama to cut me a check for my expenses??
Anyway, there was no exaggeration of the facts on the first eBay auction. The owner of the claims will be within full legal rights to go into the cave and loot and plunder whatever he or she pleases. They will also have full control of the land that the claims encompass. That is a legal right to say who comes onto your claims. There has been a lot of posturing about who can do what and Mr. Carpenter has talked out of his a$$, something I intend to fully prosecute him on. The fact is, and well established that the mining claims will hold control, there is a "cave" up on Hoyt peak that is under claim as well, has been for years. The owner has previously been kind enough to allow caving groups full access, but in light of the recent activities, he has vowed that "not one dang caver will set foot on his claim". Which I think is sad, because the caving community is really cutting their own throat with this one.
I havent lost anything, but the caving community is going to lose at least 2 caves due to their temper tantrum. Not only that, but they are bringing to light the fact that caves can be claimed and controlled.
Okay, I should roll back and say, not necessarily the caving community, but the Bates family. They have whined very loudly with nothing to back their point. This isnt about preservation to them, its about possession, they figured they had rights to something and they didnt do their diligence. And when that came back and bit them, they had nothing to do but whine and complain to whoever would listen.
As to assurances that the Cave wont be plundered, I offer none. I would hope that someone would preserve, but the fact is that the land was open to location and the cave is on that land. The BLM gave mining claims each and every year to the Bates, if the bates were so interested in preservation, they could have expanded the claims, and patented the property at any time before 1994 and then the land would be theirs. However, they didnt, they took the easy route and didnt do anything... obviously.
And the BLM, well, if they knew about the site and did nothing, then why is that my fault?

So as to what happened to the claims, I spoke with Marlene Bates and this is what she related. Someone in the family was sick around the time of the annual assessment, she knew she had to get the fees in but was waiting for a check from the "school" (as she said) to make the payment. With the chaos of the sick person, she forgot to file. So a few months later she called the Fillmore BLM and asked what she needed to do, she stated they told her that she couldnt file anymore because the land was not locatable. So she let it go at that and never followed up.
Im not going to address the legalities of this, but I know for damn sure that if it was my claim, I would have fought them tooth and nail until I had my claim back, and yeah, that would have cost a good chunk of $$.( which is again, where raising funds comes in).

So as to the current status, Im working on a few deals with some individuals that may or may not come to fruition, we will see. However, given the bashing that I have taken from the Bates family and the caving community, I can gaurantee that if the claims dont sell, and I hold them for another year, that no one not associated with GRE will step foot inside the caves. period. Ive heard all sorts of hate thrown around and so I dont feel the need to play nice or share at this time.

I do appreciate the civil dialogue and I hope you dont take this as an attack on you or anyone else as thats not the intent. Let me know if that clears anything up or if you would like to continue the dialogue.

Oh and as to the AR (AK-47 is an offshore assault rifle that looks markedly different), I make no concessions for that, I take a gun in every mine, cave, and exploration that we go on, fact is that you never know what you may come across and the unprepared are the ones that dont make it out.

[Michael_Leavitt]

Corey:

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will do my best to convey your points to cavers. As usual, many of the heated online flame wars regarding your auction are based on slightly twisted facts. You must have a thick skin, or else you would have picked a different profession/obsession. I have not been to all the other forums like KSL, but the three caver forums I do follow died down over a week ago and very little is being said.

Another point that needs to be addressed is the discussion about the cave being identified as significant.

The simplified version running in caver circles is as follows...
The Bates family has not mines the area for the last several decades (at least), and have only run tours through the cave. The claim they had on the property really was not appropriate for running tours through the cave and the BLM knew this. Supposedly the cave was identified as “significant” and that was going to be able to take away the typical mining rights and bring us into a normal caving issue of how to best manage the “significant” resource that would also allow for paid tours.

Now here is the part that is foggy. Back about the 2005 time frame is when the cave was being labeled as significant (how that process works I have not a clue), and somebody on an official level, perhaps BLM, dropped the ball and the process was never completed. This left the Bates family knowing that the mining claim was not appropriate to continue their tours. The insurance was going to be an issue.

As long as nothing was being said, the tours continued and everything was okay. Cavers figured this cave was off the endangered/troubled list, as it was still continuing to be managed by the Bates family. Everything was fine until you came in and pushed the issue. And push the issue you did.

Now I understand about making a buck, and I think you have stated your position clearly. Your main business goal is to make money to support your mining preservation cause, and caves are not on your radar for protection. If there were no money to be made with Crystal Ball, then it sounds like you would drop all of this and let the BLM, which in my opinion really dropped the ball, sort all of this out and get the cave protected and managed. If you are wondering why you are being vilified, it is because you are playing the role of the money grubbing prostitute taking advantage of a situation that you know full well was under control and there was no threat of the mine being permanently closed and sealed. That is where your thick skin must be helping you deal with being the current whipping boy. This all gets back to my earlier post where I stated that I am confused by your stated motives. The greed is obviously winning out this time around and you are not getting and sympathy from those who want caves preserved.

I am wondering how we are ever going to make forward progress towards making preservation progress together when you seem so entrenched in your position. I am sure that part of your posturing is from people backing you into a corner right now. I am also left to wonder if your written lack of respect for caves is really as harsh as you state in your post. I have a feeling that it will take a while for you to come around to the point that you realize that both mines and caves are valuable in their own ways. As long as you continue to profess that caves are of little value, then I believe that you are actually setting back the entire GRE goal of mine preservation. Cavers are forced by principle to defend caves. We do so out of love for the resource and not out of the ability to make money to support our love. Please remember that I am a volunteer cave access manager, and you are getting no current sympathy from me. Your stated positions do little, in my opinion, to move forth your preservation cause.

NOTE: I had no idea that the Mojave Underground was relatively new. I figured that you had been around a long time and that there was a common consensus in your goals and directions. Other people will also assume the same and this is why extreme opinions expressed by visible members like yourself can either help your cause or set you back your cause dramatically. Public support is a valuable tool.

Corey, when you boldly state “The owner of the claims will be within full legal rights to go into the cave and loot and plunder whatever he or she pleases,” then you know you have lost all backing of cavers. I am left to wonder why you would promote that attitude (whether it is true or not), since it only inflames the situation and you voluntarily push away what I perceive to be a strong voice from the caving community. As I tell my kids when they do something really bonehead... “There is no upside to that decision.” And since you brought it up, maybe Mr. Joe Gibbs can explain legally why the newly acquired mining rights allows either you or the new owners the right to “loot and plunder” the features of the cave as they please.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Reasoning together is helping to put all of this into proper perspective.

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
Orem, Utah
Michael@NuttyPuttyCave.com

https://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com

Michael@TheHomeInspector.com

https://www.TheHomeInspector.com