Green Eyed Monster

[one_bad_rover]

jsteven... there must be a disconnect somewhere. DOGM forced the closure of most of the mines on Leos property under threat of legal liability. We were there and onsite during the final assesment with DOGM of what was being closed and how. The last contact I had with Julie and Leo they said directly that the Caving group (I made the assumption of Timp) had been in contact with DOGM and made some sort of deal to gate the cave. They were opposed to this directly due to the fact that they would not have a key and or access to a site on thier own property.
When I contacted DOGM about this, they said that they couldnt gate it because Leo wouldnt allow it, but there was a caving group that had been in contact with the contractor doing the reclamation and the caving group was paying for the contractor to gate it.
As to the keys, those are for designated caves. Not mines. there is a huge distinction. There are NO KEYS TO MINE CLOSURES that are avail to the public.
Dont take this the wrong way, but where is your info coming from?

[mymania]

I've heard about GEM since I was in High School, so I've always wanted to go see it. If you manage to get an approved trip out there, I'd love to come.

[MA-Caver]

jsteven... there must be a disconnect somewhere. DOGM forced the closure of most of the mines on Leos property under threat of legal liability. We were there and onsite during the final assesment with DOGM of what was being closed and how. The last contact I had with Julie and Leo they said directly that the Caving group (I made the assumption of Timp) had been in contact with DOGM and made some sort of deal to gate the cave. They were opposed to this directly due to the fact that they would not have a key and or access to a site on thier own property.
When I contacted DOGM about this, they said that they couldnt gate it because Leo wouldnt allow it, but there was a caving group that had been in contact with the contractor doing the reclamation and the caving group was paying for the contractor to gate it.
As to the keys, those are for designated caves. Not mines. there is a huge distinction. There are NO KEYS TO MINE CLOSURES that are avail to the public.
Dont take this the wrong way, but where is your info coming from?

I won't speak for jsteven but I will speak as one who has worked closely with the Utah Grottos and do have knowledge of the goings on of the group(s)... as a former officer and long time member.
The land owner of GEM actually came to one of the Timp Grotto meetings when they were meeting in Lehi Public Library (they now meet at Hansen's Mountaineering). She wanted to get a feel of the group as she knew that (we) frequented her mine/cave as often as the scouts and other non-organized groups of visitors. A few years passed and if I recall, she requested assistance on building a gate (remember this is HER property and thus her right to do so) and suggestions on handling visitors. She was primarily concerned with liability should anyone get hurt inside. She didn't mind folks visiting but didn't want to get sued or stuck with a rescue bill should anyone require assistance in getting out of the cave.
Last I heard she found a plan that she could live with.
I would get in touch with the Timp Grotto or Salt Lake Grotto officers for more information.

They have no reason to lie or engage in disinformation.

[Mike]

Looks like we need to get in contact with the Grotto then. GEM would be an awesome place to get into. Anybody have anymore information?

[mymania]

I don't think the timp grotto currently knows much, but I'll see if I can find out anything. I had talked to someone at the slc grotto some months ago, and he had lost his 'contact' and didn't know access status to GEM.

[MA-Caver]

Looks like we need to get in contact with the Grotto then. GEM would be an awesome place to get into. Anybody have anymore information?

I would recommend getting in touch with a Richard Downey at the Orem Public Library (Media dept). He's been Timpanogos' grotto secretary for many years now and thus would/should have update information on the status of known gated caves.

[Mike]

Good info MA-Caver. I'll probably get in touch with him withing the next few days. Thanks.

[bigrockman]

Candlight

Candlight is a tough one to get into. Timp grotto only has the key every four months, and you have to have a guide who has been throught the cave a minimum of two times. Lots of competition to schedule the key as well. It is also one you do not want to try without vertical ascending capabilities and experience.

[Mike]

Oh thats too bad to hear. Groups being so controlling over something like that always bugs me. I can understand the reasoning why, but at the same time, Timp Grotto is power hungry and controlling.

We do need to get back into vertical climbing though.

[MA-Caver]

Oh thats too bad to hear. Groups being so controlling over something like that always bugs me. I can understand the reasoning why, but at the same time, Timp Grotto is power hungry and controlling.

We do need to get back into vertical climbing though.

Please talk to Richard D (see post above) before judging the entire grotto. I was a long time member before moving out to TAG country and I was NEVER power hungry or controlling. Just because you happen to meet one or two that are doesn't mean the WHOLE group is that way. Many of the folks I've caved with weren't power hungry either. Richard is among those who aren't hungry.

Respectfully
MA-Caver

[bigrockman]

Timp Grotto

I agree with MA-Caver, I have been out with several members of the Grotto and everyone seems willing to share and are very open if they know you are a responsible caver. I think sometimes it comes off as power hungry because of the gates, but they are just to keep idiots from destroying what me and my kids want to enjoy in the future.

[Mike]

Sorry MA-Caver. Didn't mean to offend at all. I wasn't judging the individuals or members. Just the fact that its soo hard to get into any caves. Gates have their purposes, but I'm strongly opposed to any gate that requires time and effort to get into it. BLM, OGM, DNR, Grottos, and other organization spend some much time, money, and effort keeping people out and making it hard for people to get in.

Its really frustrating driving 300-400 miles out to a mine/cave, just to find out its gated or destroyed.

I should have said: Organizations are power hungry and controlling. And all the people I've known from the timp grotto have been very nice. I havn't even met a single person who is controlling in any way. But the actions the Grotto has as a whole seem to say differently. (Expect for the relentless attempts from the web admin to get me to remove my GPS coordinates on my site, to caves only 'member' have access to, that are on public lands. )

Gates are fine, but lets not make it so hard to get into.

[mymania]

Update on candlelight that I forgot to mention. In the grotto meeting they said the BLM is looking at the management plan for candlelight cave, so until their lawyers get done with looking at it, there is no one being allowed in candlelight. So it's in the same state as nutty putty and blow hole, until the land owners (BLM for candlelight and SITLA for the other two) approve the management plans.

I sent an email to Max, the current co-chair for the timp grotto regarding GEM. I should forward it to Rich too.

[MA-Caver]

Sorry MA-Caver. Didn't mean to offend at all. I wasn't judging the individuals or members. Just the fact that its soo hard to get into any caves. Gates have their purposes, but I'm strongly opposed to any gate that requires time and effort to get into it. BLM, OGM, DNR, Grottos, and other organization spend some much time, money, and effort keeping people out and making it hard for people to get in.

In other words: Its really frustrating driving 300-400 miles out to a mine/cave, just to find out its gated or destroyed.

I should have said: Organizations are power hungry and controlling. And all the people I've known from the timp grotto have been real nice people. (Expect for the relentless attempts from the web admin to get me to remove the my GPS coordinates on my site, to caves only 'member' have access to, that are on public lands. )

Wasn't offended at all Mike. Wasn't angry either. Thank you bigrockman for backing me up on my statement.
It's good that you realize that gates are there to protect the caves and the idjits that think they know how to explore them without previous training/experience.
Many times however the rules and regs to visit said gated caves are set down by the OWNERS of the caves and the grottos just for having the privaledge of being a "key-holder" have to follow those rules set down. So we cavers have to jump through hoops too, same as anyone else. Otherwise said owners will listen to their attorneys and insurance agents and take those keys from us and NOBODY gets in.
SITLA who owns Nutty Putty and Blowhole caves are terribly frightened of getting sued by someone who got hurt or someone who's family member got hurt in the cave(s). The Utah County Sheriff got tired of being called out to the caves and threatened to cement Nutty Putty shut. If not for the intervention of the Grottos (and Cave Rescue Group) this would've happened. Thus a compromise that would please the owner (and Sheriff's rescue teams) while still allowing ACCESS to visit the cave(s) was to build a gate.
Pre-gate visits were roughly 9000 visitors a year on average. That's 9000 chances for someone to get hurt or even killed. Remember that scout master who was killed in Logan Cave a few years ago? He fell SIX feet and died on the scene. True he wasn't wearing a helmet and he landed right on his head... but you can imagine the panic that went through the ranger's office at the time. Nutty Putty, before the gate was getting several "call-outs" too closely together for the owners comfort. I was part of two of those scout rescues. So it was either cement the entrance shut or put in a gate and create a plan so that people can still visit but visit with expert (experienced) cave explorers so the risk of injury is down to a bare minimum at best. Want to get mad at someone get mad at the attorneys who are behind the scenes of a land/cave owner's concerns.
I think a lot of people don't understand that and thus take it out on the Grottos who may say NO to a person for reasons not disclosed. But believe me it's a NO for a good reason. Sometimes gates are there to protect a threatened or endangered status bat population and being the sensitive buggers they are only certain times of the year will bats tolerate human intrusion. Logan cave is one example. However that lee way was abused and the OWNERS decided to shut the cave permanently except to scientists who study bats and have government permits and all of that.
Some caves are just too fragile for casual visitation. A look at Nutty Putty and the rocks will testify to that... did you know that Nutty Putty had formations once?? Still do in a few isolated well hidden spots but overall you'd think there were none. Look at the rocks over which thousands of butts have slid over time and time again over the years and see how smooth worn it is. You get the idea. Now apply that to a well decorated cave like Spanish Moss or Red Barron.

Yes, I get passionate about all of that because I've been caving for nearly 35 years and have seen a lot. Seen what gates can do to protect a cave and seen what telling everyone and their grandmother about the cave and where it's at can do. http://ralph.rigidtech.com/view_albu...=Oak-City-Cave is a prime example of what less than 20 years of unregulated, uncontrolled visitation can do. http://ralph.rigidtech.com/view_albu...o-Name-Cave-01 gives an example of the other end of the scale.

Grottos are not to blame. Land owners actually are not to blame. The idiots who get loaded up to par-tay before/during the cave can be held to an extent. The ones who like to take a piece home with them and maybe try to make a few bucks on e-bay are also to blame, as well as just those potential darwin award recipients, also the ones who just simply don't CARE about who's who and what's what, they just wanna do what they wanna do no matter who doesn't like it.

[mymania]

Hey MA-Caver, off topic, I've seen your name pop up in a lot of forums. Have I met you in person before, at the grotto meetings or somewhere?