Daily Herald Editorial on Open Carry

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  • mymania
    Advanced Explorer
    Mojave Cowboy
    • Jun 2008
    • 95

    Daily Herald Editorial on Open Carry

    Local Utah news, sports, business, events, and photos from Utah Valley's leading newspaper, the Daily Herald.


    IN OUR VIEW: 'Open carry' goes too far
    Daily Herald

    Those would-be John Waynes who are carrying around pistols in plain sight need to use a little more common sense.
    A story in the Sunday Herald talked about the "open carry" movement, a fledgling effort to exercise the right to carry a firearm openly. The story profiled men and women along the Wasatch Front who tote their pistols on their hips as they work, shop, dine or drop their children off at school.



    Open carry is legal in Utah, so long as the gun is unloaded -- and that's just fine. But the radical gun-righters don't exhibit the sense that God gave a pencil eraser. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be. In today's society, the presence of a handgun on somebody's hip -- other than an officer of the law -- is likely to make people uncomfortable.

    If the advocates' theory is that forcing the general public to see the guns on the hips of law-abiding individuals will eventually result in more public acceptance of guns, we think they are mistaken. Their boat-rocking is more likely to bring on restrictive legislation.

    "Well," advocates of open carry say, "I have a permit for concealed carry, but concealed weapons are uncomfortable and make me feel furtive, like I've got something to hide."

    Yes, folks, you do have something to hide, and you should hide it -- not because guns are bad or because you're a threat, but because guns make a lot of people uncomfortable, and they think you might be a threat. After all, most of the people in the grocery store parking lot don't know you, and from their point of view you could be a threat. Odds are that you look more like a criminal than a lawyer.

    So why would you want negative thoughts crossing the minds of a bunch of total strangers?

    Open carry has become something of a cause. A Web site backing the idea, opencarry.org, claims more than 4,000 supporters who want to make guns as common a sight in public as cell phones.

    But the Wild West is long gone, folks. The strutting of deadly machismo is unnecessary. Be happy with your concealed guns.

    Though carrying an unloaded gun openly in a holster should remain legal, this doesn't mean people should go out of their way to rub the community's face in it. We can also see how, in some circumstances, police might view this as just one more thing to worry about -- even the rank-and-file officers who, unlike much of police leadership in America, are friends of private firearms guns and the right to self-defense.

    This is not to backtrack at all from the importance of liberal concealed-carry laws. Research indicates that states that widely allow concealed-carry permits show decreases in crime, with no rise in gunshot accidents. Permit holders are among the most law-abiding people in the country.

    Some of the best known evidence for the benefits of liberal concealed-carry laws comes in the work of John Lott, author of "More Guns, Less Crime." So it is revealing when Lott expresses doubts about "open carry."

    On his blog, johnrlott.blogspot.com, Lott recently wrote that, compared to open carry, "there are probably greater social benefits to people carrying guns concealed since it protects people who don't carry. In addition, if a criminal is going to attack a group of people in public, he can wait for the people who are openly carrying to leave the area or [he can] take those people out first."

    In an e-mail to the Daily Herald, he added, "I understand the desire for some to carry openly to show that people do it and to get others comfortable with law-abiding citizens with guns. That is something valuable. On the other hand, I think that it is more useful with regard to crime for you to have concealed carry." In other words, with concealed carry, every person on the street might be packing. This is a deterrent because a criminal doesn't know who might be able to defend himself.

    The open-carry movement just goes too far. Socially, it's thoughtless; politically, it's short-sighted; and even tactically, it's unsound.

    It's better all around for those who want to pack a weapon to get a concealed-carry permit. In today's world, we doubt even John Wayne would strap on his Colt .45 just to go shopping at Costco.
  • mymania
    Advanced Explorer
    Mojave Cowboy
    • Jun 2008
    • 95

    #2
    What do you guys think of open carry? I have my ccp, so I don't need to open carry.

    Comment

    • Mike
      Administrator
      True Mojave
      • Sep 2007
      • 1050

      #3
      Very interesting article. I has so heated and mad when i started reading the article! But as soon as I read deeper into it, I calmed down a bit and started agreeing with what was written.

      I think open carry is ok, as long as its not brandishing in a mass of people. Concealed makes a lot more sense. Open carry is fine in less populated places, such as the outdoors, or anywhere that concealed is inconvenient. I guess one problem I see is that by being to public about a gun, those who open carry start becoming a heavier target against those who are against it. Whats nice about concealed... nobody know its there
      -Fish
      Mojave Mine Team
      MU Web Administrator

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      • Stuart
        Administrator
        True Mojave
        • Sep 2007
        • 828

        #4
        I agree with Mike on this one. I carry everywhere concealed except for when I'm in the great outdoors. Interesting article, at first I thought it was another one of those liberal anti-rights articles, but then I read it all and agreed with it.
        I like to see some pro-right stuff on here, great job!

        -Mojave
        -Stuart Burgess
        Mojave Mine Team

        Project Manager
        Burgess Exploration LLC
        http://www.burgex.com

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        • mymania
          Advanced Explorer
          Mojave Cowboy
          • Jun 2008
          • 95

          #5
          A group of gun owners claim officers are treating them unfairly because they choose to carry their weapons in shoulder and hip holsters, completely out in the open.


          A group of gun owners is upset with the West Valley City police force. They claim officers are treating them unfairly because they choose to carry their weapons in shoulder and hip holsters, completely out in the open.

          In Utah, there are places no one but law enforcement can take a gun, and there are restrictions, for example people without a concealed carry permit can't openly carry a loaded gun, but much of the time, it's allowed.

          Jared Belcher is among those who choose to carry a gun. "It's a Bursa Thunder 380 I carry just about every day," he says. He carries it on his belt, out in the open. He said, "Most people, surprisingly, don't notice I have it."

          Belcher says he's never had a problem taking the gun anywhere, but he's concerned because others he's met through the organization opencarry.org have. Travis Deveraux says he was walking in his West Valley neighborhood when an officer pulled up, pulled out her gun and ordered him on the ground.

          "At the end there were a total of eight officers who'd cuffed me up, taken my firearm. But they let me go because there was nothing wrong I'd done," Deveraux said.

          Belcher and Deveraux joined more than a dozen other gun owners tonight at the West Valley city council meeting to voice concerns about how the city's police force has handled several situations.

          Scott Thompson, who also openly carries his gun, said, "A lot of the officers seem to be ignorant of the fact that carrying a firearm openly in public is perfectly legal in Utah, if done properly."

          Wayne Pyle, the city manager for West Valley City, said, "Until today I'd never heard there was any concern, complaint or incident." He had limited time to research the cases but says it appears West Valley Police handled them appropriately. He adds that in any situation where officers know someone has a gun, they're extra cautious. "This is a different day and age than the late 19th century. It's not common to see people wearing side-arms on the street," he said.

          After hearing the group's comments, the city council recommended the citizens file their complaints with the city's Professional Standards Review Board, which investigates concerns against officers.

          Comment

          • Ah-Teen
            Junior Member
            Mojave Child
            • Mar 2008
            • 19

            #6
            I really hate "this isn't the wild west" and "oh they're just being macho." I really do. Yes it makes people uncomfortable. Arabs who dress traditionally make people uncomfortable. I'd probably say more so than an openly carried firearm. Should we ban that?
            Originally posted by Me
            So... Ya'll like gas masks eh?
            http://ah-teen.deviantart.com/

            Bauer. You will be missed. *sniffle*

            Feed the hungry!

            Comment

            • Stuart
              Administrator
              True Mojave
              • Sep 2007
              • 828

              #7
              Thats a good point you have there Ah-Teen.
              -Stuart Burgess
              Mojave Mine Team

              Project Manager
              Burgess Exploration LLC
              http://www.burgex.com

              Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/MineExplorer
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              • Kloutier
                Junior Member
                Mojave Baby
                • May 2008
                • 1

                #8
                I am an Open Cary Advocate. I open where ever I can. Not to be macho or to make other feel like I am going to call some one out for a duel, but because it is my right to. Your right its not the wild west any longer...Its worse. Now I am not sure if that is because I have a habit of reading local news, But the amount of crime in "Happy Valley" blows my mind.

                An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

                Comment

                • Dino
                  Advanced Explorer
                  Mojave Cowboy
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 71

                  #9
                  I'm very pro gun and would advocate open carry, if not for the simple fact it's our constitutional right as Americans. However, I personally would rather carry concealed for the reasons mentioned earlier. I think it gives you an upper hand should something start to go down. What is sad though is some of our legislators have decided we need a permit for concealed carry. Where's the reasoning; carry out in open - no permit required, but if you want to cover it up - get a permit. For some reason that doesn't make any sense to me.

                  Comment

                  • KDT1970
                    Advanced Explorer
                    Mojave Miner
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 121

                    #10
                    I am extremely PRO GUN also, and have no problem with open carry. How many Criminals do you see openly carrying a firearm? The answer is zero.
                    I also have a concealed carry permit, and carry however I want to carry for the day open or concealed.

                    Comment

                    • ghostshot
                      Junior Member
                      Mojave Child
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 18

                      #11
                      What is the sense of carrying open if the firearm is unloaded? Sure,open carry in the hills,out camping,but in town it's best to be a conceal carry permit holder.Why...you give yourself an edge in case of a situation,your firearm is loaded and you have the time that you might need to protect you and your family. SO...conceal carry is inconvenient/uncomfortable,good,lets you know of the responsibility that you have in carrying a sidearm!

                      The public needs to feel uncomfortable,once in a while,reminds them that it's not a perfect world out there.

                      "Look more like a criminal than a lawyer"?...PLEASE...don't get me started on lawyers!

                      Cell phones kill,that's why you aren't allowed to drive and use the phone...unless hands free.

                      Who ever said the Wild West is gone has not spent any time in L.A.!
                      John

                      P.S. CFP holder for 8 years now,carry two on me and one in each vehicle.
                      So many ghosts, so little time.

                      Comment

                      • KDT1970
                        Advanced Explorer
                        Mojave Miner
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 121

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ghostshot
                        What is the sense of carrying open if the firearm is unloaded? Sure,open carry in the hills,out camping,but in town it's best to be a conceal carry permit holder.Why...you give yourself an edge in case of a situation,your firearm is loaded and you have the time that you might need to protect you and your family. SO...conceal carry is inconvenient/uncomfortable,good,lets you know of the responsibility that you have in carrying a sidearm!

                        The public needs to feel uncomfortable,once in a while,reminds them that it's not a perfect world out there.

                        "Look more like a criminal than a lawyer"?...PLEASE...don't get me started on lawyers!

                        Cell phones kill,that's why you aren't allowed to drive and use the phone...unless hands free.

                        Who ever said the Wild West is gone has not spent any time in L.A.!
                        John

                        P.S. CFP holder for 8 years now,carry two on me and one in each vehicle.
                        You can carry fully loaded openly with a concealed carry permit.
                        Carrying open or concealed is a long time debate and I think it depends on how the person carrying prefers to do it. Open carrying has been proven to actually deter crime.

                        Comment

                        • ghostshot
                          Junior Member
                          Mojave Child
                          • Jul 2010
                          • 18

                          #13
                          I didn't know that a permit holder could carry open, loaded. Yes,along standing debut,we as gun owner's shouldn't care how a person carries their firearm,it's the sheeple who think that the world is safe and perfect who are the ones who object.Me,I don't want the attention that open carry brings with it,i.e.I'm in Wal-Mart one day(yes I know,but they have the lest expensive dog food and ammo)and an older couple are behind me in the check out line.They are talking about their stuff and I lean over my cart because I'm lazy and tired of standing,waiting(36 check out lanes and two people working) and my holster sticks out from under my shirt...they moved to another lane.I don't care what they thought but it shows how some view someone who is carrying a gun...we are all just bad news.I don't want someone telling a LEO that they saw me with a gun and me having to spend my time showing proof that I can exercise my right...after all,I don't look like a lawyer.

                          Open carry is fine with me,it gives some time to rethink what they may have been planning.For me,I can afford to dress where I can carry concealed which makes me comfortable and that is what it is about,for gun owners,being confident with the way a person carries and handles their firearm.

                          I do have some wheel guns that would be...bulky...to carry concealed.
                          So many ghosts, so little time.

                          Comment

                          • Dino
                            Advanced Explorer
                            Mojave Cowboy
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 71

                            #14
                            Does anybody know what happens if you carry concealed but don't have a permit? Has this ever happened to anyone? I went through the concealed carry class but decided not to submit an application because it felt like I was volunteering too much information about myself. In the class, the instructor mentioned that when the laws does a check on your identity and it shows you have a CCP, it allows them to begin a new line of questioning about whether or not you have a firearm. I had reservations with this because I personnally feel like you shouldn't have to be interogated everytime you come in contact with an officer.

                            Deep down I also feel, as Americans, we shouldn't have to get a permit to validate something that's a constitutional right in the first place. If a person is found carrying concealed without a permit, does that entitle the law to confisicate your weapon and strip you of your ability to defend yourself? Maybe I'm more pro gun rights than most, but it's one of the few issues I really feel is clear cut in the constitution and should not be open for interpretation or modification.

                            Comment

                            • KDT1970
                              Advanced Explorer
                              Mojave Miner
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 121

                              #15
                              You both should become members of:
                              A forum community dedicated to firearm owners and enthusiasts in Utah. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!

                              and
                              “A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost”


                              76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
                              (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
                              (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
                              (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
                              (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
                              (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
                              (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
                              (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.

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