thoughts on members only section of the forums

[ryan162]

whats are peoples thoughts on having a private section of the forums to discuss more details of mines?

i really go back and forth on the subject myself since im new to the hobby and would have had nothing to go on if it weren't for bits of info gleamed from places like this and other websites. but at the same time mines have been vandalized, burned, robbed, and other unfortunate things and i cant help but think those things happen from the availability of info on the internet. a quick google for bighorn mine, and every gangster can grab his spray paint, follow detailed directions and even get an map of the interior on the mine lol. on my trip there i encountered 2-3 other groups of people inside the mine and 3-4 other groups either leaving or going to the mine. thats a mine that is not on the side of the road or visible from a car....its a 45 minute, moderately difficult, hike to the other side of a mountain...its just got tons of detailed info about it on the internet.

the first website i stumbled upon when looking for info on mines was http://www.socalfunplaces.com/topic_desert.htm if you read his site he has purposely concealed the locations of everything he has shown.

Update on the "Bonanza Powder" mine:
If anybody ever wonders why I hide the names of these mines and refuse to give out location info, above is an updated picture of the entrance to this mine - sombody decided to burn the timbers and completely cave it all in. There are no other entrances to this mine - its interior is hidden behind who knows how many tons of rubble forever. This was a real good one too. PLEASE - enjoy my photos and don't ask me where I was when I took them.

i myself havnt posted as much as id like to in this forum because
-im not sure in my ignorance if i was trespassing in some situations.
-i dont want to see the places ive been vandalized
-im worried about unprepared people going out to the mother of all mines.

now im not saying a members only section will solve all this, but registering is a extra step that Joey Spraypaint might not bother with.

what do you guys think? sorry if this has already been discussed.

[Joanne]

I’d like to comment on your second point of whether or not to publish the location of the various mines that we visit and explore. I’m new to the list and don’t know if there is a common agreement. In the two posts I made about mines I’ve been to I included the Lat and Lon because both mines are listed in the DeLorme Atlas. Anyone can grab the map and head into the desert.

That said, I don’t know if it would be preferable not to publish the information and allow members to send a PM requesting the specific location. Honestly I don’t think it provides a lot of protection. I don’t know if the slight amount of protection gained is worth stifling the free exchange of information.

Just my 2¢ worth....

Joanne

[ryan162]

Joanne i hope you didnt feel funny when reading that post. i loved that you have included the lat/longs for those places and id like to do the same with the places ive been, im just not sure about putting it out in the open for google to find.


it may really only pertain to socal possible since our mines are sandwiched by LA and Vegas. most of our good ones are not listed on topo maps either for some reason. the topos i found for Calico only show one or two mines when that whole area actualy looks like swiss cheese lol

that said, check your pm. i have a series of mines a few hours from you that are huge

[Derek]

I also have mixed feelings about this very thing. I have come to the conclusion that if it is easy to find or clearly marked on a map then I will post it on the forum. Otherwise I'll still consider posting it as long as I don't give out the exact location. And of course if a participating forum member asks for more info about these not so easy to find locations I am more than happy to give it out to them via pm.

[Joanne]

Joanne i hope you didnt feel funny when reading that post.

Not at all! In fact it let me know that I'm not the only one who has mixed feelings about how to share this information. Any time I join a new online group I try to make certain that I am sensitive to the group's standards of posting. Some groups don't like much chit-chat and want to stay laser focused on the subject matter. Other groups are more like a bunch of friends with a common interest they like to share. (Guess which group I enjoy more? )

I wouldn't mind hearing the thoughts of the "old timers" on the list. (I'm not referring to age, but rather those who have been doing mine exploration for a long time.)

Joanne

[Derek]

Joanne,

You'll find this group to be more of the later where we all have common interests that we enjoy sharing on the forum. BTW I have been exploring mines for about 15 years and my above post is the conclusion that I have come to in those years.

[Mike]

Its very logical to want to 'hide' the location from the common person. However, my personal feel on the situation is that mining sites, when on public lands, should be shared by responsible individuals. I like to get coordinates out there for so people can visit the sites and enjoy them. I think Joe Spraypaint will find the location whether its posted or not. So when publishing data on the wiki and forums, I always include coordinates. On a more rare case, I'll not divulge location when there are culturally significant and undocumented findings. Stuart and I have many, many mines like this. Half the MMT doesn't even know about them

Another problem with a private forum is determining who is Joe Spraypaint, or Gabby Government. Even if we meet them in person. We have the DOGM and likely BLM registered on our forums, but we don't know who they are. GRE has the same problem. Also, little of his content hits the search engines, which furthers the problem of trying to expand interest in our hobby. There is a very good reason for why Mojave Underground is screaming to the top of the search rankings Further, maintaining two separate forums becomes a nightmare for its administrators. Tying them together is not always an easy task. It also creates substantial confusion between it's users, having to sign up twice.

Its impossible to know who can be trusted, and who cannot. So I just trust all and get the search bots running through content. Besides, I loath having to register on a forum just to read content So if you know its public lands, feel free to post locations under your own discretion.

Not wanting to push the idea down, but it has been discussed in intimate detail with members of the MMT, and Stu and I wish to keep just one forum, open to the public, and free for the search engines to crawl and devour. Thanks everybody for you input.

[ryan162]

you make a very good point about expanding the hobby. if more people experience abandon mines for what they are instead of thinking there satan holes of death lol, they might start getting protection like caves and other historical sites.

i was thinking that a section of this forums could have W/R permissions for only members. you can do that in the forum admin panel, but i see that would be counter productive to what your seeking.

i know im a product of google searches to find my way here and ive now got two MMT tshirts waiting for me at home. thanks for the site!

[Mark1955]

I have very mixed feelings as I don't want the mine police waiting at each site when I arrive with a couple of friends to look around. I use the groups IM function for setting up outings with friends... don't tell me that I'm the only one using it...

Mark

[Stuart]

This is definitely a topic for determination on a case by case basis, there is not one right answer for every situation. In general I agree with Mike on open, searchable, and accessible coordinates, but as he mentioned there are several mines that he and I know of that we will not reveal unless specifically asked by a trusted individual.

The biggest reasons I have for masking locations on the forum are:
1: If I am unsure of ownership and access legalities.
2: If divulging the location would damage the trust of the individual who provided me with it.

As for Joe Spraypaint and his friends? They will ALWAYS find a site to vandalize, I seriously doubt they search out specific locations on the internet to trash over the weekend. In all my years of visiting historic sites I have discovered two facts in regards to vandalism, one is obvious and one is quite fascinating. The obvious fact is that vandalism is much more severe in easily accessible areas near major cities. The interesting fact is that mine sites with openings that have been reclaimed and closed are subject to a higher frequency and greater amount of vandalism. To put it bluntly, once the mine is sealed up people get pissed and destroy what is left on the surface. The closure and destruction of the actual mine opening is leading to the complete eradication of surface artifacts. I'd like to study this phenomenon and get some hard facts as this may help with our fight against the closures, has anyone else noticed this happening?

I think that the best general rule to follow is; plan your trips and post coordinates via email and private messages if you are in question about the status and integrity of the site. As always I will continue to post many coordinates and I will always give them out active forum members who ask for them.

[rhartill]

Excellent points, Stuart. I have been told by BLM in California that they have stopped using razor wire or barbed wire to fence their shafts, because they have found that round wire fencing receives LESS vandalism that the razor wire does. The pissed-off theory has been proven in CA!


I tend myself to lean toward the "information ought to be free" philosophy and vandals and spraypainters will and can find usgs, mindat, and other sources that can provide lat long coordinates to anything they want to "tag."

A sobering thought, however, is the idea that since the DOGM ranks mine hazards by how accessable and popular they are, if we publish and promote certain mines, they may become targets for closure. Of course, they already ARE targets as the DOGM uses the USGS database as well, so I come back to the side of promoting full disclosure.