Anti-Mine Propaganda

[fredmcain]

Group,

I would like to bring your attention to this anti-mine propaganda film here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIymNGqvLf4

I would first like to make it completely clear that I do *NOT* agree with all the points in the film. I am a strong and vehement believer that a balance needs to be found and struck between safety and historic preservation.

So, why am I posting this at all, then? Two reasons. One to help illustrated what we're up against (as if we didn't know) but also because I thought this film has some rather interesting footage in it.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Mike]

Ah ya that's an old one, saw it many years back. We've tried working that balance between safety, preservation, and access, but the state is totally happy just closing everything up. Very hard people to work with.

[fredmcain]

Mike,

Perhaps a somewhat different strategy might be to bypass the state officials and take the case directly to the people. Perhaps if people knew that our Western mining heritage and history is slowly being destroyed they might put pressure on their elected officials to change course.

Near the end of the video they did mention that some mines in western Colorado are open for tours. I think that should be part of the ticket. I wish more of this could be done in smaller mines as well as larger ones. This might give people who are untrained (like me) a good taste of underground exploring and also urge them to "save" other mines until a permanent solution to them can be found. I don't know, I am partly "thinking out loud" here but it just seems to me there should be some better solution than just bulldozing in adit portals.

Regards,

[Brahmabull1018]

What can I do personally to help with mine preservation? Are there petitions, meetings, people who I can call or e-mail, anybody of influence that can help stop senseless mine closures? Also, if any mine improvement projects are going on I would love to help out with that. Any suggestions?

[fredmcain]

What can I do personally to help with mine preservation? Are there petitions, meetings, people who I can call or e-mail, anybody of influence that can help stop senseless mine closures? Also, if any mine improvement projects are going on I would love to help out with that. Any suggestions?

What can you possibly do to help? Well, I can offer a few ideas based on my experiences of trying to bring back U.S. Route 66. I know that might sound off topic at first, but what mines and bringing back Route 66 have in common is the attempt of getting the public to see the need for something and then getting the public to act on that need. As I found out, this is no easy task.

What I personally happen to believe is that this idea of saving and preserving abandoned mines is a new movement that is now in its infancy. We have a long, long way to go but we shouldn't allow that to discourage us. All great waves start out as tiny ripples!

With the Route 66 idea, I began by writing to all the State DOT's involved. Most states have some kind of a state mining department so that would probably be the best place to start. Write to the state mining inspectors or, better yet, the directors of the departments. Perhaps the U.S. Forest Service, National Park Service and B.L.M. should also be included.

Never, never, never underestimate the power of a really well-written letter. Do not be discouraged when you get negative responses that merely brush your ideas aside or pooh-pooh them. This is going to happen and is exactly what happened to me but the letters are important anyways. They plant the seeds of ideas in people's minds. Another piece of advice I can offer here is that I had way more success by sending old-fashioned paper letters in envelopes than I did by sending e-mails. There is just something about a hard copy letter that grabs people's attention – especially in a government bureaucracy.

The next thing to do is to write articles for magazines and establish a website. In the case of preserving mines, it looks to me like we already have a website or websites out there so maybe what we need to do then is to promote those sites so that more people see them.

This is what I would personally love to see done with abandoned mines and would support any way I can:

First of all, all mines should be thoroughly inventoried to determine how far gone they are. The best mines should be renovated and restored and prepared for public tours like the Old Hundred Mine in Colorado or the Queen Mine in Bisbee, Arizona. If it were up to me, I would want to see at least a half-dozen so mines in every state where mining was a part of the state's history.

Then, a second layer of mines (deemed ineligible for tours) would involve securing them with impenetrable, locked gates that could be opened to admit professional teams like the Mojave Underground. Probably many, many western mines would/could fall into that category.

For those mines deemed too risky, too difficult or too far gone to ever restore, they should be permanently sealed with "bat grates" but have the surrounding historical grounds preserved including any historic equipment and buildings. It is a crime in many states to illegally remove historic Native American artifacts and so too should it be to remove, damage or vandalize antique industrial equipment.

In any case, all mines that fall into the first two categories are going to require extensive investments as their infrastructure continues to age. Last but not least, mines falling into the first two categories might also be eligible for future reopening by mining companies. In that case, mining companies should be required to use historic mining methods consistent with the mines' historic role so that the companies don't end up destroying history by converting them to open pit mines or modern "trackless" mines.

And finally, I would like to really go out on a limb here and say that our Nation desperately needs some kind of tort reform. I hope that isn't too political for our group but the sad fact is that many, many people, businesses and government offices are so terrified and paranoid over the prospect of getting sued that they are afraid to do anything anymore. That needs to be addressed not only with abandoned mines but in other walks of life, too.

Those are just a few of my thoughts and clearly I've only touched the tip of the iceberg, uh, ore vein here.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Brahmabull1018]

What can you possibly do to help? Well, I can offer a few ideas based on my experiences of trying to bring back U.S. Route 66. I know that might sound off topic at first, but what mines and bringing back Route 66 have in common is the attempt of getting the public to see the need for something and then getting the public to act on that need. As I found out, this is no easy task.

What I personally happen to believe is that this idea of saving and preserving abandoned mines is a new movement that is now in its infancy. We have a long, long way to go but we shouldn't allow that to discourage us. All great waves start out as tiny ripples!

With the Route 66 idea, I began by writing to all the State DOT's involved. Most states have some kind of a state mining department so that would probably be the best place to start. Write to the state mining inspectors or, better yet, the directors of the departments. Perhaps the U.S. Forest Service, National Park Service and B.L.M. should also be included.

Never, never, never underestimate the power of a really well-written letter. Do not be discouraged when you get negative responses that merely brush your ideas aside or pooh-pooh them. This is going to happen and is exactly what happened to me but the letters are important anyways. They plant the seeds of ideas in people's minds. Another piece of advice I can offer here is that I had way more success by sending old-fashioned paper letters in envelopes than I did by sending e-mails. There is just something about a hard copy letter that grabs people's attention – especially in a government bureaucracy.

The next thing to do is to write articles for magazines and establish a website. In the case of preserving mines, it looks to me like we already have a website or websites out there so maybe what we need to do then is to promote those sites so that more people see them.

This is what I would personally love to see done with abandoned mines and would support any way I can:

First of all, all mines should be thoroughly inventoried to determine how far gone they are. The best mines should be renovated and restored and prepared for public tours like the Old Hundred Mine in Colorado or the Queen Mine in Bisbee, Arizona. If it were up to me, I would want to see at least a half-dozen so mines in every state where mining was a part of the state's history.

Then, a second layer of mines (deemed ineligible for tours) would involve securing them with impenetrable, locked gates that could be opened to admit professional teams like the Mojave Underground. Probably many, many western mines would/could fall into that category.

For those mines deemed too risky, too difficult or too far gone to ever restore, they should be permanently sealed with "bat grates" but have the surrounding historical grounds preserved including any historic equipment and buildings. It is a crime in many states to illegally remove historic Native American artifacts and so too should it be to remove, damage or vandalize antique industrial equipment.

In any case, all mines that fall into the first two categories are going to require extensive investments as their infrastructure continues to age. Last but not least, mines falling into the first two categories might also be eligible for future reopening by mining companies. In that case, mining companies should be required to use historic mining methods consistent with the mines' historic role so that the companies don't end up destroying history by converting them to open pit mines or modern "trackless" mines.

And finally, I would like to really go out on a limb here and say that our Nation desperately needs some kind of tort reform. I hope that isn't too political for our group but the sad fact is that many, many people, businesses and government offices are so terrified and paranoid over the prospect of getting sued that they are afraid to do anything anymore. That needs to be addressed not only with abandoned mines but in other walks of life, too.

Those are just a few of my thoughts and clearly I've only touched the tip of the iceberg, uh, ore vein here.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

Fred - Thank you for the advice, I liked your ideas and will follow through with them. I am new to this, but have always been an advocate of leaving mines open for those who want to explore them without supervision. To me the only ones that should be sealed are verticle shafts that people may fall into on accident. All horizontal shafts should be left untouched by the government. In my view if people want to explore them they should be able to do so if there is no claim on the land and it isn't private. I was very sad to see the nutty-putty caves closed down. Very disappointed - no disrespect to the deceased man or family - but they should have retrieved the body and left it open. They claim that people have to call search and rescue when they get lost in the cave. Well they have to rescue hikers and mountain climbers and hunters every single year, and we don't see those activities being shut down. That is why this is so frustrating, like there is some bigger problem with mines and caves... it just doesn't add up for me. It is almost as if that state will shut down anything that doesn't make them money (caves, mines) but other things that bring in revenue (hiking/day permit, hunting, mountain climbing) they are fine putting people in danger for. It just doesn't make sense but history is disappearing and it is sad.

[fredmcain]

Fred - Thank you for the advice, I liked your ideas and will follow through with them. I am new to this, but have always been an advocate of leaving mines open for those who want to explore them without supervision. To me the only ones that should be sealed are verticle shafts that people may fall into on accident. All horizontal shafts should be left untouched by the government. In my view if people want to explore them they should be able to do so if there is no claim on the land and it isn't private. I was very sad to see the nutty-putty caves closed down. Very disappointed - no disrespect to the deceased man or family - but they should have retrieved the body and left it open. They claim that people have to call search and rescue when they get lost in the cave. Well they have to rescue hikers and mountain climbers and hunters every single year, and we don't see those activities being shut down. That is why this is so frustrating, like there is some bigger problem with mines and caves... it just doesn't add up for me. It is almost as if that state will shut down anything that doesn't make them money (caves, mines) but other things that bring in revenue (hiking/day permit, hunting, mountain climbing) they are fine putting people in danger for. It just doesn't make sense but history is disappearing and it is sad.

I fully agree with a lot of what you are saying. In my mind's eye, I cannot think of any sport that is more dangerous or terrifying than rock cliff climbing. Whitewater rafting is not far behind and then there are rodeo performers. I was working with a young guy for a while who rode bulls! Yet all these sports are O.K. and acceptable whereas exploring mines is taboo. I don’t see the logic in that either.

However, there are some serious issues with mines. People who are inexperienced and who really don’t know what they’re doing or getting into should stay out of mines just as people who don't know what they're doing should stay off a cliff. But the mines appear more inviting than a cliff. (I wouldn't try scaling a cliff for all the tea in China).

The other thing is that private individuals and businesses with mines on private property are absolutely terrified over the possibility of getting sued. That needs to be addressed as well. But it seems there's no such thing as an accident anymore. As soon as someone gets badly hurt or killed, the lawyers line up to file lawsuits.

If they could just make it so that someone has to sign a legal waiver to enter a mine, that should be O.K. Or, that is the way it SHOULD be anyhow. But people are afraid anyway.

Let me give you an example. I have some friends here in Indiana who run a small coal yard selling anthracite "hard" coal. (I actually burn it myself).

A couple of years ago, they went to the mine in PA on business. While they were there they begged the mine bosses to take them through the mine. It was like NO WAY. They were too afraid of liability. So, my friends told them they would sign something relieving the mine of all legal responsibility. Huh-uh. Still no dice. They just didn't want to take any chances at all and that mine wasn't even abandoned!!!!

There is no excuse for this. Our society has lawsuit-oriented. There is actually a word for that but I can’t think of it right now. Oh, yeah, litigious I think it is. We have become too litigious for our own good.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Brahmabull1018]

I fully agree with a lot of what you are saying. In my mind's eye, I cannot think of any sport that is more dangerous or terrifying than rock cliff climbing. Whitewater rafting is not far behind and then there are rodeo performers. I was working with a young guy for a while who rode bulls! Yet all these sports are O.K. and acceptable whereas exploring mines is taboo. I don’t see the logic in that either.

However, there are some serious issues with mines. People who are inexperienced and who really don’t know what they’re doing or getting into should stay out of mines just as people who don't know what they're doing should stay off a cliff. But the mines appear more inviting than a cliff. (I wouldn't try scaling a cliff for all the tea in China).

The other thing is that private individuals and businesses with mines on private property are absolutely terrified over the possibility of getting sued. That needs to be addressed as well. But it seems there's no such thing as an accident anymore. As soon as someone gets badly hurt or killed, the lawyers line up to file lawsuits.

If they could just make it so that someone has to sign a legal waiver to enter a mine, that should be O.K. Or, that is the way it SHOULD be anyhow. But people are afraid anyway.

Let me give you an example. I have some friends here in Indiana who run a small coal yard selling anthracite "hard" coal. (I actually burn it myself).

A couple of years ago, they went to the mine in PA on business. While they were there they begged the mine bosses to take them through the mine. It was like NO WAY. They were too afraid of liability. So, my friends told them they would sign something relieving the mine of all legal responsibility. Huh-uh. Still no dice. They just didn't want to take any chances at all and that mine wasn't even abandoned!!!!

There is no excuse for this. Our society has lawsuit-oriented. There is actually a word for that but I can’t think of it right now. Oh, yeah, litigious I think it is. We have become too litigious for our own good.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

Fred- You hit the nail on the head regarding the litigation thing, and that is probably why people are so hesitant... but honestly how many lawsuits have been brought on by somebody getting hurtin in a mine?? If they accidentally fell in an unmarked vertical shaft I could maybe see a claim. However, if somebody enters a mine of their own free will and choice that should be the end of the liability of the owner of it or the land. There should be a law preventing any lawsuit if the person enters the mine willingly. Period, end of story. Same thing if it is public land and there is no claim owner. Why is it somebody else's liability? Furthermore, I can go buy a dirtbike today, with no dirtbike training or license, and go out to the sand dunes. If I kill myself, who's fault is it? I bought the bike, I didn't train for it, and I did it. In fact, numerous people seem to die in the sand dunes every year.. and I am sure more have died there than in mines in the last 40 years. I don't get why they don't just pass a law preventing litigation in the case of willful entry, that would make everything easier and people could go in if the mine owner chooses not to gate it off. I would be willing to sign a injury and death waiver in order to go in there. In fact (you mentioned rodeo) I had to sign a death and injury waiver when I took a rodeo bullfighting class a couple years back.. I was glad to because I wanted to do it and it was my choice. In any event it is very frustrating to say the least.

[fredmcain]

Ah ya that's an old one, saw it many years back. We've tried working that balance between safety, preservation, and access, but the state is totally happy just closing everything up. Very hard people to work with.

You know I just developed a new theory about this. One way to "save" old, abandoned mines is simply to stake an "official" claim on them and then you have the legal right to do whatever you want. What I didn't realize until yesterday is that some groups have actually done this. See here:

http://www.ironminers.com/mineforum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22140

Hats off to those guys! They even fixed up the track! Would the M.U. possibly consider doing this too? Of course, for this to work, no one else can have a claim on the mine. But if someone else does have a claim on the mine, perhaps they might be willing to sell it. I think this is at least worth thinking about.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Brahmabull1018]

Mojave Underground Administrators - Is it possible to do what Fred is suggesting? If a mine is gated off, will the state remove the gate if a private party (Mojave Underground, or private individual) stakes an official mining claim on the mine?

[Kiel]

They don't remove the gate, but it does allow for you to have access. The key is to get a mine before they want to gate/ backfill it. Then they can't tech gate it becuase you need access

[fredmcain]

Personally, I have little objection to gates as long as they can be opened to admit wildlife biologists and official "mine researchers" like the members of the Mojave Underground. This also leaves the door open to future mining. It is the backfilling of mines that is so very hard to undo once it's done. It's not impossible to undo by any means, just expensive.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Brahmabull1018]

They don't remove the gate, but it does allow for you to have access. The key is to get a mine before they want to gate/ backfill it. Then they can't tech gate it becuase you need access

So is this a feasable way to stop them from gating off more mines? What is the process for filing a claim, and is it expensive or time consuming to file the claim? If it is feasable why aren't more people doing it to stop them from being closed?

[Kiel]

There are people that do it, it does take a lot of time and paperwork not nec money to figure out how to do it, but the info is out there.