Crystal Ball cave

[rhartill]

Welcome back, caverdave...

What is interesting is that the BLM has done nothing yet to invalidate Corey's mining claims. Lawsuits take lots of time and to the court's credit, are not litigated within the 4 corners of a blog or listserv...

what have you heard about the status of the Crystal Ball cave and the mining claims?

[Mark1955]

It would stand to reason that some time may pass in which the previous claim holder might be allowed to dispute it... although I think that would be found to be very invalid by any court at this point in time because of the lapse they allowed in renewing this claim. The rest is going to just take time.... and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Mark

[one_bad_rover]

CBM Update

Quick update for those interested, and for Caverdave. (cmon man, you know me a little better than that...)
The BLM is in the process of validating the claims. This is a process based on historical evidence and existing minerals. Any minerals on the ground are basically grounds for validation. This is the first step. However, I would like to add, based on CD's smug sounding comments that its not all roses for those involved... Ever wonder what happened to Glenn Carpenter, who was spearheading the effort? That "acting state director" is somehow now demoted to a field office manager. With Selma Sierra in the office as state director. Weird how that happens. Also, as a note, the mine is completely closed now, there is no access for anyone. The two options at this point are validation of the claim, or appeals and appeals. Either way the caving community will likely never have another chance to get into the site unless of course it gets sold and someone sympathetic to the cavers allows access.
Either way its a great example of how the cavers kneejerk reaction and Dale Greens idiotic "strategy" closed the area completely.

The caving community should totally know that Im the type of person that will just roll over and play dead when pushed.

[caverdaveutah]

Cory, thanks for your timely update.

So have you filed any lawsuits, as you implied on several occasions? Or have you decided to wait for the BLM to complete their validation / invalidation process first? Please let us know when the BLM completes their determination, and what determination they make.

I continue to disagree that the site contains valuable minerals meeting the criteria for being locatable, and I continue to disagree that creating a door on the cave somehow makes it an abandoned mine. I also do not believe that Crystal Ball Cave will be off-limits to responsible recreational cavers, or to qualified scientific researchers, once this mess is settled. You are welcome to disagree, and if you do, then I am OK with that.

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>> Lawsuits take lots of time and to the court's credit, are not litigated within the 4 corners of a blog or listserv...

Agreed, and as it should be.

I am not requesting any detailed or proprietary information on any actual court proceedings. I was just wondering IF any lawsuits had actually been filed, and if so, what you can tell us about that (if anything). I hear a lot of people, when hot with emotions, saying they are going to fight this or that in court, to prove they are correct and everybody else is wrong. And in my experience, most of those people are just full of hot air, and either do not end up in court, or go there and lose. Sometimes it happens that way, and sometimes it doesn't, depending on the actual people and facts and issues involved. I'm just wondering what is happening on this particular issue.

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Regarding your comments about BLM staff, I will note that "acting state director" is a temporary position (by definition). An "acting" job title only appears when the regular position (State Director) comes open, and the position needs to be filled and the work to be done, but a permanent replacement for the position has not yet been found. In such a case, another qualified person is temporarily given an "acting" position, until the regular position is officially filled. It sounds like they finally hired someone to fill the State Director position, and if so, then Glenn Carpenter almost certainly went back to his previous regular job. Such a move by the BLM cannot be considered a demotion, and by itself, is certainly not evidence of any wrong-doing on his part. It would be expected for any acting position within the BLM.

Because of the additional burdens of being in an "acting" position, while still trying to do your regular job, most "acting" positions are limited to a few months. If after that time, the position is not properly filled, the acting person will go back to their regular position, and a new acting person will be temporarily selected. Therefore, unless Glenn was selected for the permanent position, or took another job elsewhere, it was almost certain that he would go back to his previous position by now. He certainly wouldn't be expected to remain in a temporary "acting" position for this long.


caverdaveutah

[caverdaveutah]

>> The caving community should totally know that Im the type of person that will just roll over and play dead when pushed.

No, when threatened, or even questioned, you don't generally roll over and play dead. But I question whether most of the caving community knows that, since most of them don't know you, haven't met you, and don't have any idea what you do for a living. Most of the caving community knows you only as someone who threatened to sell or destroy Crystal Ball Cave (regardless of whether or not that is accurate).

Most of the caving community doesn't know anything about you, and since you choose not to participate in the organized caving community, and choose to slander them from time to time, they don't generally care who you are or what you do. As a rock-hound, prospector, and long-time explorer of abandoned mines, I am interested in what you do, and follow some of your online postings. Most cavers do not know or care what you do. Why should they?


caverdaveutah

[one_bad_rover]

Well, put, and okay, I may have been kind of a jerk with the last post. At the current time there is not the need to file the suit. The validation needs to be resolved, once that is in place I can move forward with either the BLM granting access, or at that point, I might have to file suit. Ive sent some rather nice correspondance to the BLM offering to bury the hatchet, but with no response.
I should have clarified and I can do it here, that my conflict for the Caving Community as a whole is the same I had with the "sneaky prospectors" over on other forums. These wonders, caves, mines, etc... are out there for all to enjoy. The stealth aspect of it is lame and keeps the average person from heading out and enjoying what is out there.
I dont want to suck up to someone just to try and get information that should be public.
If you add to that the general disdain that the majority of the Caving Community has shown for mines and mining history, well, that just adds salt to the wound.
My final goal with the CBM is the same as it usually is, claim, document, sell.
It works extremely well for what Im trying to do because I get people from all over that are suddenly taking an interest in these "abandoned mines" and thats quite a bit more difficult to force a closure over than just some unclaimed holes in the ground.
The sad part about it is that before the hub-bub about it, there was a very interested party that has already done some pretty signifigant cave restoration and preservation work. It would have made CBM somewhat of a destination for people to safely visit and eliminate the element of destruction that has happened inside to date.
The Bates could have handled this a lot better as well, I was respectful and courteous to them when I really had no reason to be. All I ended up getting from that group was death threats and curses, for something that I had full legal rights to. They screwed up and that became my fault. C'est la Vie.
Finally, to touch on Glenn, the IBLA initiated an investigation, as did the BLM. We were kept updated on the status of the investigation through our complaints.
There was also a great deal of information that was released as a part of discovery in a case that really shows Glenn, Ray and a few others to have no regard for law or process. That info might show up in a personal lawsuit.

So theres the status and explanations. Sorry if I was harsh in the other statement, I know that we (CD and I) disagree with eachother a bit but he has always shown himself to be a pretty intelligent and level headed guy and didnt deserve my random tirade.
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[John]

Thanks for the update Corey.

The Wife & I toured that cave several years ago with the Timpanogos gem & mineral society. It's a rather impressive little cave and hopefully sometime down the road it will be open again so we can take our son to see it too.

[one_bad_rover]

so a few people have been interested in the exact text of the letter that we sent to the Bates after we had filed the claim and started our research.
Here it is:

Mr. Jerald Bates GRE, Inc.
HCR Box 340 14056 S. Pepi Band Rd.
Garrison, Utah. 84728 Draper, Utah 84020

Ms. Marlene Bates
HCR Box 340
Garrison, Utah. 84728
Dear Jerald Bates and Marlene Bates,
It has recently come to our attention through filings and submissions that one or both of you were the previous claimants of the “Crystal Ball Cave” and the “Gandy Mountain Cave” located on Spring Mountain, in Millard County, Utah. In fact county records showed you as the claimants until 2005, when for whatever reason, the claims were let to lapse.
GRE, Inc. has filed and received mining claims that encompass both of these caves. Our intention is to both document and preserve the sites as is mandated in our company charter.
To that end, we were hoping that one or both of you might be able to provide any additional information , maps, or anything really that speaks to the history of the cave and its origins. Once we have compiled the information we will be publishing a gallery web page that will give a “virtual tour” of the site, thus allowing people to see the cave but without actually being in the cave to further damage it.
We are also curious if you know of any other activity occurring regarding the caves. When we staked the GPS corners of the claims we noted that the doors were locked with a rather recent looking padlock. We did not want to disturb these locks at that time, as we felt removal of the locks may compromise the integrity of the site. We were curious if you know who might have put the locks on. We are intending to remove those locks and add some higher security locks in addition to some motion sensor cameras and rebar gating.
If either of you and your families still visit the caves we would be happy to provide you with keys and access to the sites with advanced notice.
As a side note, we did pick up a copy of “North Snake Valley, Part 1” at the Border Inn, fascinating stuff and very well written!! We have been working mines and mining history in the Deep Creek Range for the last 15 years and we find that no matter how much we think we know, there is always so much more to be found out.
Our groups intention is to preserve and protect some of Utah’s Mining history from not only vandals, but from the BLM and the Department of Oil Gas and Mining who seem to be destroying sites faster than we can locate and document them. Any help that you could provide in this area would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and for any assistance that you can offer.
Sincerely,

Corey T. Shuman
President, GRE, Inc.

https://www.goldrushexpeditions.com

801-647-3209

[caverdaveutah]

Thanks for the update Cory. Let us know how things turn out. No hard feelings on my part either. . . we just disagree on several things.


>> I dont want to suck up to someone just to try and get information that should be public.

And that's perfectly fine. If you don't have to do so, then don't. But in many cases, the information being sought on various caves is not public information. Some of that information is very much proprietary, obtained by individuals, only after a lot of hard work and sweat was invested by those individuals. Public information on caves should be publicly available, where that information is not harmful to the caves in question, and where that information is not protected by law. However, in many cases public information about caves on federal lands IS protected by law, and distributing that information is not in the best interest of the cave resources in question.

Private information on caves is a whole different question. Private information does not need to be made public, and is wholly controlled by those who obtain it. It is private information, and the people who find it are in no way required to give it up, just because somebody asks. If I find a really great fishing spot, and you do not, why should I have to tell you about my fishing spot? You are welcome to go and find your own good fishing spot, or you are welcome to ask me about mine, but if I want to keep it a secret, then that is my right. And if I told everybody about my favorite fishing spot, and advertised it far and wide as the best fishing spot ever, then that spot won't be nearly as good anymore.

I'm sure you have come across various caves, from time to time, including caves I am not aware of. You are under no obligation to tell anybody what you find, or how to get there, especially if you know that other people would destroy what they found. You are welcome to keep your own secrets, and so is everyone else. I don't keep secrets very long, or very well, as I don't like keeping secrets. But looking back, I often wish I had kept some things a lot more secret than I did. Many cool things have been destroyed or damaged, by the reckless actions and attitudes of others . . .


caverdaveutah