Frog System Tips

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  • mymania
    Advanced Explorer
    Mojave Cowboy
    • Jun 2008
    • 95

    Frog System Tips

    climbing.com talks about the frog system in one of their tech tips. (The frog system is the most popular ascending system among cavers)
    Climbing Tech Tips: Frogging



    Tech Tips - Aid - Froggy goes a juggin’
    By Pete Zabrock
    Illustrated by Mike Clelland

    Figure 1. The initial set-up for the Frog ascending system.

    You’re back at the base of El Cap, ready to jug the ropes you fixed on the radically overhanging Tangerine Trip. Nothing to do but clip on your ascenders and start jugging. Ten minutes later, however, you’ve ground to a halt not even 50 feet up. Your biceps are toast, but you’ve still got over 300 feet to go! Your “Yosemite system” worked fine on low-angle rock, but it’s debilitating on a free-hanging rope.
    Take a lesson from cavers — pale, anemic offspring of the underworld with nothing better to do than perfect jugging systems — and convert your rig to the Frog System. This highly efficient “sit-stand” method moves your lower ascender up the rope “automatically” as you climb.
    The first step is to take one of your ascenders (a Croll is best, but any ascender will suffice) and mount it as low as possible on your harness. Use the smallest locker you have (or even a quick link) to get the jug low — otherwise it won’t work — and orient it so the ascender sits flat against your abdomen.
    You’ll need to keep this ascender upright as you move up. Chest harnesses don’t work well, so many cavers use a loop of shock cord round their necks. Keep this loop small — just big enough to squeeze your head through — so when you’re standing on the ground you feel “hunched over” by the elastic. Pad the elastic with an old t-shirt and some duct tape. In a pinch, you can substitute a slightly shortened shoulder-length sling.
    Better still, get a Petzl C26 Torse chest harness (under $20) made specifically for the Frog System. It’ll improve your efficiency substantially over the shock cord, and the adjustment buckle lets you crank it tight to “hunch” you on the vertical, then lets you back it off at belays.
    Your upper ascender is attached to your harness by a daisy, with a foot loop tied from one-inch tubular webbing (Figure 1).
    To operate the system, turn the upper ascender away from your body, and put both hands on top (Figure 2). Put the rope between your toes, and separate your feet as you lift your legs. When you stand, the single foot loop squeezes the rope between your toes and pulls it through your lower ascender. Push down, not out, with your feet. At the top of each stroke, arch your back and thrust your hips to get a few extra inches. If you’re touching the rock, use one foot in the loop, and the other against the wall. Using this method, an old fart like me can jug 200 free-hanging feet in under three minutes.
  • Mike
    Administrator
    True Mojave
    • Sep 2007
    • 1050

    #2
    Hey thanks! This is some good stuff. Nice to have some technique on the site.
    -Fish
    Mojave Mine Team
    MU Web Administrator

    Follow us on Facebook

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    • mymania
      Advanced Explorer
      Mojave Cowboy
      • Jun 2008
      • 95

      #3
      I especially like being referred to as 'pale, anemic offspring of the underworld". LOL

      Comment

      • Stuart
        Administrator
        True Mojave
        • Sep 2007
        • 828

        #4
        This is great technique. It comes in handy especially when climbing out of a shaft after a long day of exploring when you're completely drained. Pale, anemic offspring of the underworld, yeah that sounds about right.

        -Mojave
        -Stuart Burgess
        Mojave Mine Team

        Project Manager
        Burgess Exploration LLC
        http://www.burgex.com

        Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/MineExplorer
        Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MineExplorer

        Comment

        • MA-Caver
          Junior Member
          Mojave Teen
          • Jun 2008
          • 28

          #5
          I've been frogging for years as a caver and my deepest ascent so far has been +300'. I've instructed dozens upon dozens of people on the how-to's of vertical caving with many going to the frog as their primary choice of system(s). In-so-far I've accumulated well over 39K feet of vertical experience stretched out over 18 years.
          One of the biggest things I've seen people do "wrong" is using their arms to pull themselves up the rope. This is fine if you're Ahnold and have massive upper arm strength but horrendous if you're just average joe. The preservation of upper arm strength is crucial to a successful ascent. Mainly upper arm strength should be preserved for when you get to those nasty lips that are sometimes/often encountered.
          Your legs are the strongest muscles in your body -- I don't care what anyone else says. Ever try pushing/punching a deadbolt lock with your arms before, think about with a good strong kick at the right place and you understand where I'm coming from.
          As a martial artist I've found lots of little things that can help out in doing vertical work. Balance, center of gravity, energy conservation, remaining calm during crisis and so on.
          Many, many people I've trained tend to do the same thing while frogging. They want to lean back against their croll (seat attachment) and pull themselves up. This will work... for about 25-50 feet depending upon how strong a particular individual is. But if you're 100+ feet down a mineshaft... you're basically screwed and will have to sit there on the rope building up your energy reserves again or get rescued.
          The best froggers will understand that by knowing where one's center of gravity is (usually located at or around the solar plexus) and keeping one's feet tucked up underneath it, and pushing down with their feet/legs they'll effectively push themselves up the rope with little or no effort. It should be the same as your on the ground and in a full squat and standing straight up. Your arms are used primarily to maintain balance and shouldn't do any pulling or tugging upwards at all... until you get to that nasty ole' lip. Having your feet out in front of you is going to "cam" your way up the rope and going to wear you out very quickly.
          Tuck those feet up under your butt and just push down with your legs to raise your body up straight vertically.
          Also using short strokes and not rushing to the top helps keep energy expenditure to a minimum.

          Another little tip and this is applicable to any system you use or even for horizontal explorations, get one of those camel back packs and have the hose go up and over your shoulder so that the nozzle is near your face... having a drink of water now and again goes a long way from getting all dehydrated from exertion, particularly in those dry desert caves/mine-shafts of the west. What I like to do is fill the bladder to almost full, leaving a few inches of air-space at the top then toss that into the freezer the night before the trip. By the time you get ready to want a drink there should be nice COOL water to drink, as opposed to the warm water one normally gets from filling it up at the gas station enroute out... even ice cubes will melt and get warm.

          Originally posted by Stuart
          This is great technique. It comes in handy especially when climbing out of a shaft after a long day of exploring when you're completely drained. Pale, anemic offspring of the underworld, yeah that sounds about right.

          -Mojave
          It's taken as a compliment too... thanks!
          Whether it's nobler in the mine ... I'd rather be in a cave.

          Comment

          • mymania
            Advanced Explorer
            Mojave Cowboy
            • Jun 2008
            • 95

            #6
            Good advice. I've had to learn to keep my chest as close to the rope as possible, so my energy is directed directly against gravity (straight down). I still need to find a good caving harness I like. I have a GGG one, but it's not very comfortable, so I end up using my climbing harness more often than not, even though it doesn't work as well for the frog. Most the vertical caves I've done so far aren't very deep, so it hasn't made a huge difference. But if I end up doing 'JP' or something even deeper, i"ll probably wish to have a caving harness on.

            Comment

            • MA-Caver
              Junior Member
              Mojave Teen
              • Jun 2008
              • 28

              #7
              Originally posted by mymania
              Good advice. I've had to learn to keep my chest as close to the rope as possible, so my energy is directed directly against gravity (straight down). I still need to find a good caving harness I like. I have a GGG one, but it's not very comfortable, so I end up using my climbing harness more often than not, even though it doesn't work as well for the frog. Most the vertical caves I've done so far aren't very deep, so it hasn't made a huge difference. But if I end up doing 'JP' or something even deeper, i"ll probably wish to have a caving harness on.
              Petzl makes harnesses specifically for frog users. Hansen's Mountaineering sells them. Or you can find them on line.
              Whether it's nobler in the mine ... I'd rather be in a cave.

              Comment

              • mymania
                Advanced Explorer
                Mojave Cowboy
                • Jun 2008
                • 95

                #8
                Yeah Petzl is pricey...
                Have you used any of the other popular brands, like pmi?

                Comment

                • MA-Caver
                  Junior Member
                  Mojave Teen
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 28

                  #9
                  Originally posted by mymania
                  Yeah Petzl is pricey...
                  Have you used any of the other popular brands, like pmi?
                  To that statement and to similar ones about the high price of helmets, I say: ... How much is your life worth?

                  Besides, I've had petzl made gear for over 10 years and it still doesn't need replacement.
                  Sometimes a high price really does mean excellent quality!
                  Whether it's nobler in the mine ... I'd rather be in a cave.

                  Comment

                  • mymania
                    Advanced Explorer
                    Mojave Cowboy
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 95

                    #10
                    Originally posted by MA-Caver
                    Originally posted by mymania
                    Yeah Petzl is pricey...
                    Have you used any of the other popular brands, like pmi?
                    To that statement and to similar ones about the high price of helmets, I say: ... How much is your life worth?

                    Besides, I've had petzl made gear for over 10 years and it still doesn't need replacement.
                    Sometimes a high price really does mean excellent quality!
                    True

                    Comment

                    • mymania
                      Advanced Explorer
                      Mojave Cowboy
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 95

                      #11
                      Originally posted by MA-Caver
                      Originally posted by mymania
                      Yeah Petzl is pricey...
                      Have you used any of the other popular brands, like pmi?
                      To that statement and to similar ones about the high price of helmets, I say: ... How much is your life worth?

                      Besides, I've had petzl made gear for over 10 years and it still doesn't need replacement.
                      Sometimes a high price really does mean excellent quality!
                      True
                      Wouldn't imply GGG isn't safe...my life should be just as safe with their $50 harness, but i agree you get what you pay for. I don't like my GGG harness very much. Probably worth spending the extra $

                      Comment

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